Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Your thoughts on the DeLorme PN-60w & SPOT Messeng

It's off season so it's a good time to think about new toys.

So what do you think about the DeLorme PN-60w & SPOT Messenger to replace my old (first) version of the Spot? I'd love to hear everyone's views (Richard, I'd be interested in your view of this product since I know you are a heavy user of Spot in your travels, lots of experience).

I'd be interested in likes and dislikes, advantages and disadvantages..... help me out here everyone!!!!

Paul

Not to seem argumentative, but for many of us, no season is "off". Each season has its own pleasures ...

Paul:

I don't know anything about the DeLorme PN-60w, but I can tell you the SPOT II definitely works better than the original SPOT. The only drawback is the shorter battery life due to smaller batteries.

Echoing Kevin's comment, when people ask me when climbing season is, I answer that I climbed my first 14er of 1994 on January 1 and my last one on December 31.

Bob

Can't get away with anything on this board. This is THE season. Now we get to bring out the fun toys. AT Skis, snow shoes, ice ax, crampons, 4 season tent, Avy transceivers, shovels, probe poles....the list goes on.

I just looked at the specs at the REI site. Considering the cost of the SPOT/DeLorme, I'd seriously look at the GeoPro Messenger. I was given one to evaluate by the manufacturer and was pretty impressed. Not sure of its final cost (it was released last spring). Its main advantage is two way texting. The disadvantage over the DeLorme/SPOT combo is it's not a real GPS in the sense that it easily gives you location on a map, though it will give coordinates. So the choice here is between an emergency satellite transmitter with two way text capability (GeoPro) vs. a regular GPS with one-way (outbound) text and emergency signaling capability (SPOT). The GeoPro can also be queried remotely (that is, a message can be sent polling its location as well as tracked real-time, like the SPOT). The GeoPro tracking can be set to any time interval.

Testing showed that the GeoPro (which works off the Iridium satellite system vs. Global Star for the SPOT messaging & emergency function) worked fine in the Sierra and, I believe (from SPOT testing data posted here), better over time than the SPOT. Tracking at 20 minute intervals showed few missed tracks signals. A recent test in Zion canyons showed OK results, though missed signals in the deep slots as well as serious location errors in large alcoves. The latter are a result of "mulit-path" signals and, I suspect, would be no different for the SPOT or, for that matter, cell phone GPS function.

(Side note: a recent call for help in Yosemite from an iPhone had the coordinates the person gave reading off his iPhone as off by 1 mile horizontal and 3,000 feet vertical. The SAR coordinator there said this isn't the first time they've had very inaccurate results from cell phone calls. I'll ask some of you dweebs out there for reasons in another post.. -- though I'm now aware of cell tower triangulation vs. actual Sat GPS and cell software averaging of the two.. .).

I'll totally avoid a discussion about gizmos in wilderness. I definitely agree they have a huge potential to change the very nature of the wilderness experience. Speaking strictly about the abilities of these two devices, if your need is to stay in good communication with a base and have the ability to effectively signal an emergency as well as carry on a limited exchange of the nature of the emergency and your needs, then also consider the GeoPro.

George

well, I have a reliable GPS, I have a Spot, and if I were to change anything for $700 (the cost of the GeoPro Messenger), I'd get a used Iridum Sat phone and leave the spot at home. Two way voice works a lot better for me. I hate texting, and I doubt you can text a ranger woirking on a land line at Lone Pine in the Ranger Station. maybe I am too much old school in that respect, but I find there's nothing wrong with realtime voice communication when technology already achieved it, why step back to just sending a few text bits?

It really comes down to what you think you need -- if anything. There's trade-offs with all of these gizmos. The advantages of the SPOT & GeoPro are semi-real time tracking and an emergency locator beacon. In both devices, a text string has more of a chance of getting through than voice. On the Whitney rescue in mid-October, it was a cell phone text message that got out -- they couldn't get a good enough signal for voice. Both Iridium and Global Star have multiple satellites, which means they're only in position for x amount of time. I've rarely had luck getting a Global Star signal and will get about 5 minutes or so on Iridium (in mountainous terrain). Though have often waited an hour for a strong enough signal on the latter.

There's a huge number of dropped emergency cell phone calls from mountainous terrain (mostly Whitney). Most all of emergency calls -- sat & cell -- end up being a frustrating wait for a call back when the signal drops. In those situations, text would probably be better.

You are right about who to send a text to. SPOT provides 24/7 dispatch for their emergency signal. Not sure about the texting device combo. The same is true of the GeoPro -- you can set up a emergency call list to any number of emails and cell phones, but it's still dependent on someone checking them (the GeoPro is designed mostly for agency use).

The voice solution is a geo-synchronous satellite and a phone was just put on the market that's tied into such a satellite -- assuming you have about a 30 degree southern horizon in North America. (Terrastar http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/21/terrestar-genus-hybrid-satellite-phone-hits-atandt-at-long-last/)

Which is all just to say it really depends on what you want or expect to use the various gizmos for.

george

I would be interested in anyone's recommendations on the McMurdo 210 Personal Locator Beacon. It's an emergency PLB and nothing else but it sounds like it would be more reliable for that single function than the Spot. It is also much cheaper than the DeLorme and Spot combo and there's no annual fee.

Thanks for any info.
Burt

One frequent user of this web page is quite successful with using and sharng his tracks with the SPOT records of some of his trips. However, that device and some of the others like it on the market have been used with varying degrees of success based on the customer feed back comments out there on web sites like REI and as covered in some of the outdoor journals like "Outside". Frankly, if your principal purpose is to provide some communication of your route for you and your friend's amusement and enjoyment and to keep a record of your travels, then these devices are just fine. However, based on the number of complaints I have read from consumers, these devices have what appears to be a low reliability factor in an emergency and do not work in all geographic conditions. I also formed the distinct impression that they are somewhat delicate and do not hold up well under rough use in the field, although the second generation SPOT appears to have a better performance record. I have owned and used an ACR 406 MHz EPIRB beacon for years on my boat, and I now carry in the field a personal EPIRB manufactured by ACR. ACR made some of the gear I used years ago when working with L A County Lifeguards and in the military. The ACR units hold up well under extreme use, but these devices are used only for emergency communication in real life emergencies and they are expensive. You don't deploy one when you are cold or when your back aches or your ankle is sore, and you can't use this type of device to allow your family or pals to track your movement. They do get the message out to the right people, however. The personal COSPAS--SARSAT unit made by ACR is real expensive but its burst transmission of digital code works anywhere in the world and downloads on an NOAA computer in Maryland within a few minutes of activation. The federal government then has your location and these devices do work through a forrest canopy and in most canyons. The government alerts local authorities with the personal information you have supplied. I recently spoke with the manufacturer of the SPOT units at a trade show that i attended as a member of the L. A. County Underwater Instructors Association. The SPOT people are eager to criticize the federal system, but when pressed about the facts for the field reliability of their product, they quickly devolve into generalities and platitudes and bald assertions without facts. When it comes to my life, I will pay a little more and stick with the good system our government has establish. I want to be rescued.

Nice, Richard. Now they just need to make it work with the iPhone and I'm all set.

I need a new phone anyway and it won't be an iPhone. This may save me from the insane Iridium sat phone pricing... 41 character messages?

"meet at Taboose Pass today 5pm food drop" is 41 characters...

a little more info on how it works and that you still have an SOS function even if your phone ends up in Woods Creek:
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-32254_1-20027126-283.html

I'm keeping my eye on this gizmo and I'm a bit skeptical as to how well it works in respect to battery usage. Battery drain seems to be an issue on my Droid when running apps although this may be more an issue with cell connection. Curious as to whether the app will function in airplane mode.

The features that SPOT offers are attractive. I have reservations about it for a few reasons. First there is no ability for SAR to track the signal. With the 406 bursts, SAR aircraft can home in directly on the signal. Just flying to a waypoint may not always be the best because there may be no visual way of verifying you are in the correct spot. It also makes it easier for ground teams to home in directly on the signal. Often communications deep in the woods or up in the mountains from a ground team can be intermittent so if the gps coordinates are not right there may be no way to verify the location. What happens if your SPOT cannot get a signal out because you are under cover? If a SAR aircraft gets close they'll be able to pick up the 406 beacon that may not be able to make it to the satellite.

Second, the SPOT service is expensive.

Third, there are no standards on the quality or testing of the SPOT so it is left up to the manufacturer to decide if it is worthy. All COPAS SARSAT beacons must meet rigid standards and be fully tested then approved.

SPOT uses the GEOS call center which is still not integrated adequately into the SAR system. In the event of the 911 button being pushed, the SPOT messenger sends its coordinates via the Globalstar low-orbiting satelite network to the privately run GEOS call center, who then contacts local search & rescue authorities.

The Globalstar low-orbiting satellite network has its limitations. There are large swaths of land that the device doesn’t cover with the Globalstar system.