Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Etiquette (When) do you help a person?

Ken brought up a point on another post about helping hikers when they look to be having problems. But, when do you help? I still can't get the image out of my head of a very white pasty hiker a couple of years back. It was July and he was on the switchbacks. He was moving extremely slow and staring at the ground. He was by himself, sunburned and did not look like he would be able to summit. I said hello and he acknowledged, but not with any enthusiasm. The next time I saw him, he was at Trail Crest, still looking pretty bad. I do think he summited though. I have suggested to several hikers not continue because of time constraints and I know I would help if I KNEW the hiker was in trouble. I remember a couple of posters on this site saw Wade Brunette and thought he was in trouble last October. I know wazzu helped a person who was delirious and walked all the way back down with them to the portal. It's easy to say, just stay with a person, but how do you know when to ask?

What is the etiquette? Is there a specific procedure? When do you intervene?

Kind of a judgement call. If they look in trouble, it can never hurt to check if everything is fine.

I agree with what was said above... It's a judgment call and also a gut feeling call in my opinion. A friendly hello, how's it going can prompt a response from the person potentially in trouble that can give you a lot of information. I've passed people mending (minor) injuries and I've asked how they are doing and is everything OK. In my experience, thankfully everyone has been fine (other than maybe needing a bandaid or something simple), but thankful for the concern and potential for help.

I personally feel it's better to be safe than sorry and ask if something doesn't look/feel right. Even if something looks under control - some simple help can sometimes make a relatively easy solution that much easier for the person in need (ie the bandaid situation)

I think there are two questions here: (1) I think it is always good to talk to a person who might be in trouble, try to gauge if they’re OK, and offer help if it seems called for. Obviously, if a person says they need help you should help them even if it means abandoning your own plan.

Three years ago I welcomed the concern of people who stopped to ask if I was OK when I was stopped halfway between Trail Camp and the summit. I wasn’t OK, and I decided to turn back. The fact that my exhaustion was so obvious tipped the scale against my trying to push ahead. But I didn’t need help to get down.

The more serious question is the one quillansculpture seems to be asking: (2) Do you insist on trying to help someone if your help is not accepted even if the person is in obvious trouble?

I have a pretty firm line on this: A person has the right to reject help even if it is a wrong, life-threatening decision.

Part of my thinking comes from the experience of living with a wife who used a wheelchair. She really resented it when people tried to help her without her OK. She hated it when well-meaning people came up and tried to push her chair.

The most serious situation of this type that I faced was years ago when I picked up a young man who was hitchhiking at the south end of Death Valley. He asked to be let off at an overlook in the middle of nowhere. It was summer and deadly hot and he wasn’t carrying any water. I asked him was he sure; did he know the dangers; what was his plan? I made it clear that I would be glad to take him into the center of the park. He was clear about his choice even if it didn’t make sense to me. I think he was looking for a religious experience.

I didn’t feel I had the right to impose myself upon him (nor did I have the power to – if he wanted to jump out of my car he could do it). What I could do, and did, was to report the incident to the first ranger I could find. I felt they had the expertise, the training, and the authority to do what should be done.

I would do the same thing in the mountains. If a person seems to be in danger but rejects a clear offer of help I would change my plans if necessary to get to a ranger as soon as possible and report the situation.

But I would always want to err on the side of a person’s right to make their own decisions – even bad decisions.

Once a person has summit fever it's difficult to convince them to turn back.
When a group of five of us successfully hiked Whitney in a day, there was one person who said at the beginning of the hike he would turn back at the first sigh of trouble. He only did two practice hikes and took a four week break prior to Whitney. He struggled at the switch backs, he looked terrible, the back of his neck was shockingly purple. There was no way to convince him otherwise.

Actually all of us had summit fever. I was the leader and nobody listened to me. I wanted to start by 2 am. but everybody wanted to start at 3. We were on the trail by 3:30 so the turn around time was thrown out the window. We were lucky because there were two high pressure systems back to back and good weather favored us that day.

Summit fever is dangerous and contagious.

Well, you can only offer your help. If they insist on not wanting help, then so be it I guess? In the end, anyone should make their own decisions. If I see something out of the ordinary, I might give some advice or my thoughts on it and it's up to the person in question to make the decision.

Then there is a possiblity of cerebal edema in which case the person is no longer able to think rationally.

We are not experts, but we have been up many mountains in all types of conditions so we have an idea of the mountain environment and associated variables.

Larry and I always talk to people who look like they may be having a problem OR look like they might be heading toward a problem. But most of the time they just look at us and keep going.

We always wonder if they made it back.

as you all have said i think it's a judgement/gut call. i've asked more times than i can count, "Are you OK?" usually the response is yes, but sometimes it's "No" or a "Huh?" which i take as "Nope." i have been able to share water, duct tape, snacks, directions and encouragement.

a moment that comes to mind was when i was slowly hiking up White Mtn struggling from the effects of AMS and a guy passed me that looked in worse shape. when i asked if he was Ok, i got a flat look. i asked if he was drinking water and he said yes and i suggested he might try an aspirin. he nodded and passed and a few moments later i hear a groan only to see him doubling over with his wife grabbing him. i walked back to help her and he was having a seizure. seems they summited White Mtn by nibbling on a lemon cake and very little water. he was dehydrated. long story short, i enlisted help from others as they came by (luckily a physician and RN in the lot)and after he stopped seizing we had him lick some Gu, drink a bit of water and sent a hiker on the descent to ask the lab for a Jeep. he was checked out by a paramedic and made it home safely.

i'm stubborn and rarely ask others for help, but i have been so blessed by offers when others recognized i needed something and offered it. i usually say, "Hi" when passing a hiker and if i sense something is wrong i don't think twice about asking "Are you OK?" or "Is everything OK?" what goes around, comes around.

Joe, as many have said, it's both an instinctive call on your behalf, and a case of live-and-let-live if a hiker inisists they're OK and don't need assistance (you know how stubborn and self-reliant we hikers can be at times ) . Remember the guy we ran into on Whitney back in July that had screwed up his knee and was using his trekking poles as makeshift crutches? His comment when we expressed our doubts about him making the last few miles to the Portal on his own: "I got myself into this, I'll get myself out."

Despite some ridiculous Mommy-button abuses that get reported, I think many folks will reject the idea that they're possibly in trouble and might need some assistance or re-direction (also filtered and interpreted at times as, "You're out of your league, dumbass!"). Pride gets in the way of clear thinking as often as hypoxia or summit fever.

Aside from any clearly disabling injury, all most people really need is just some encouragement and company. Maybe an aspirin, some water, or something else equally simple. Your initial comment about wazzu's experience with that out-of-sorts hiker on Whitney a few months ago was a prime example. Wazzu mostly walked him back down to the Portal, making sure he didn't do anything stupid to hurt himself. As I recall, most mountain evacuations consist of carrying the injured or ill person's pack while offering company and encouragement as they pretty much get down on their own, despite their ailments. I believe Doug Sr. has commented on this several times, and God knows he has a laundry list a mile long of incidents over the years where he's headed up the mountain to offer assistance to someone in trouble.

As AMS is the most common trouble factor in the Eastern Sierra, that's the most likely case you'll run into. But you can only do as much as that affected person allows you to do - or their hiking partners allow. A couple of summers ago I ran into a backpacking group near Cottonwood Pass, with one high school-age boy clearly suffering from AMS. I spent about 30 minutes with them and, while they were sensitive to the boy's condition, they were not overly concerned. At 11,000 feet, they figured he just needed some more acclimation time and he'd be fine. They only had Tylenol with them, so I left a few ibuprofin and went on my way. I found out later that the boy had been med-evaced out of Cottonwood Lakes that following morning and was DOA from either HAPE or HACE.

That leaves an impression on you. I asked myself if there was anything more I could have done that would have gotten this kid back to Horseshoe Meadow and safety during my interaction with the group, and the answer was really "no". When I left them, the boy was ambulatory and coherent, although shaky and suffering from the massive headache and nausea so common to AMS. If he were solo I probably would have pushed harder for a turnaround, but he was in the group's care and they assured me they would keep a close eye on him and get him down if he didn't show improvement (by when, I wasn't real clear on, as I thought back on it).

That incident was in the back of my mind when you and I encountered the couple on Whitney this past summer - the one with the lady really hurting from AMS. I can't remember exactly where we crossed paths first - maybe the switchbacks? I know at least twice after Trail Crest we ran across them, and we strongly encouraged her to turn back. I recall distinctly pointing out to them both that this was potentially life-threatening and descending was the only cure. Seeing them again at 14K', I remember thinking what a heel this boyfriend was for allowing her to continue to the summit in her state. Couldn't he see that the summit was just not that damn important, and that she was in a world of hurt and needed to get down?! Then at the summit we see them finally arrive - and join the group that was having the big memorial celebration for their late friend. Bam! Totally different perspective! It wasn't summit fever that drove her past the point she should have turned back, or pride, or peer pressure. The physiological dangers were still the same, but her motivation and determination to push on was different than I had assumed. I had to give that one some thought. I was awfully glad to see them come out at the Portal, though!

And then there's some who don't help because they are afraid of getting sued.

Like others have said, you always ask. At work (in uniform) I can push the issue if people seem to be risking themselves or others, but people have the right to refuse medical (or any kind of) assistance. Even when hiking on my own, I always carry emergency gear etc. just in case someone needs it, but even just stopping and chatting can help you (and them) assess the situation better. While out hiking, I have at times convinced some people they may be in over their heads. But, ultimately, they have the final say. On the other side of it, years ago, I did a solo rim-to-rim at Grand Canyon one day while the family drove around from North to South Rim. It was one of "those" kind of trips. What should have been just a long day hike became a much bigger deal as I got too late a start after having breakfast with the family, tweaked my knee badly about 3 or 4 miles into it, etc, etc. Finally, at my arrival after sundown, as I sat at the trailhead waiting for the husband to return and pick me up, an older tourist couple noticed my wrapped knee (and probably my fatigue) and inquired if they could help me, expressing concern. Even just a short walk from Bright Angel Lodge, they were willing to help me in any way. I assured them I was just waiting for a ride, but I am still touched by their concern, years later. It doesn't hurt to express concern when someone is not looking so good.

"Summit fever". One of the worst emotions ever. More people get in trouble because they have this drive to achieve their goal at all costs. Including death. For some reason, we, as a species have this aversion about turning back. It takes a lot of experience to learn how to turn back.
You will not be sued if you help. The "Good Samaritan" law prevents that.
My rule of thumb is the deeper into the backcountry or hike they are, the more I pay attention. Being one hour out is one thing, being 12,000 feet is another. I have to go by gut feeling and how they respond. Many seem to hide their problems as if it is a weakness. Sometimes the gut feeling sees through that.

I just ask... usually people say the are okay. But one time we ran in to a hiker and he looked in trouble and I asked and he said he was lost, out of water and we were about 10 miles from the trail head. I gave hime some water and gatorade and hiked with him down the trail until we found his group and they helped him the rest of the way. But pretty much all you can do is ask.

For me, the etiquette of helping others has been very situationally dependent. I've moved right on past people that appeared exhausted many times, thinking that when I take a rest stop, I probably look just as trashed as they do, though I am most definitely not at Death's door or anything. On a few occasions, I, too, have supplied aspirin, or moleskin or duct tape to other hikers - usually because they specifically asked for those items, and I was glad to help.
Three years ago, my group was camped at Lone Pine Lk in Sept, when a vigorous thunderstorm came through, dumping rain, snow and hail. About an hour after it got dark, a young guy outfitted for a day hike wandered down to the lake. We told him he was off trail, he seemed a bit scared, and we noticed he had no light of any kind. I usually carry a headlamp and a little handheld Teklight, so I just pulled my headlamp off and gave it to him, then walked him back up to the main trail. He was in good shape, other than being alone on a dark and stormy night in the mtns.His attitude improved greatly when he could see where he was going. Luckily there was a bit of a cattle trail still discernible through the couple inches of snow - a lot of other day hikers had evacuated that afternoon/evening. He was a couple hours from the pkg lot, and I'd seen that the snowline was about a half mile below us, so he'd be OK.
Another member of this board, Hillbasher, and I have done a lot of hiking and climbing, and have been lucky enough to not come across any medically-challenged people, though we have passed through situations that were already being helped, or had recently come to a conclusion, either happy or tragic.
I agree with the idea that people have the right to refuse help. I have had brief conversations with individuals that were obviously not having fun anymore, and made the point to them that they may not feel any better until they get lower on the mtn, and left it at that. I always make an effort to talk to them as equals, maintaining an air of "just passing through".I wouldn't want to make the problem worse by engaging any nanny-authority problems they may have (maybe I'm looking at my own reflection there !). I have neither the authority nor the training to 'force' assistance on anyone, but if I came upon someone throwing up blood,wandering like a zombie or shivering uncontrollably, I would consider my climbing trip to be either 'on hold' or possibly cancelled until the situation could be stabilized to the best of my ability. This isn't Everest, and I know I'd appreciate a little help if I was helpless.
Finally, I know its possible to run into people needing help anywhere in the mtns, but the terrain has a certain filtering effect on the faint-hearted; you are less likely to run into someone with AMS on, say, Tyndall, then you are in the Whitney Zone. A world-famous peak above a pkg lot at 8000' in the southern Sierra is a magnet for all types, so this discussion is especially important for those that frequent the area.

Driving home Saturday night (after hiking Whitney) I began to wonder about this very subject. A thread started by dharma made me think of it again. I posted this information on the other thread, but feel it is relevant here:

0n the switchbacks, my hiking partner (Dave) and I ran into a lady hiking solo. We played leapfrog with her for a bit until we started talking. There was something odd about her, but not knowing her, I didn't know if that was just the way she was, or if it was something else. One thing that I noticed is that she'd go flying by us like she wasn't working hard at all, then five mins later I'd see her nearly passed out, sitting on a rock. I tried telling her that she was better off going slow and steady instead taking long breaks after sprinting up the trail. She said she needed to sprint b/c her group was waiting for her.
When I got to trailcrest, Dave was talking to her at the top. I noticed that she looked really cold - shivering a little. I told her that if she was that cold, she might want to consider heading down, as it probably wouldn't be warmer headed towards the summit. Dave and I regrouped, took a bunch of pictures and headed towards the summit. On the way to the summit, I asked Dave about the lady and told him I hoped she turned around and headed back down. When talking to her, Dave said that she repeatedly answered his questions with 'It's just the altitude.... I'm in great shape, not winded, it's just the altitude.' At that point, I started thinking that I should've spent more time talking to her and really encouraged her to head down.
Dave and I spent 30 mins on the summit and started the trip back to the Portal. About a mile from the summit, we ran into the lady. She was with a friend now, but was vomiting and was using an emergency blanket to stay warm. She had made it to the summit (yesterday I realized she's in one of my pics). I hiked with the two of them for the next hour or so. At some point, we were joined by 2 others that were in her group.
Talking to one of them, I learned that the lady started vomiting near Outpost Camp. Two of the people in the group had just met her the night before (not sure how she knew the other person in the group). One of the guys gave her the keys to his car at Outpost and told her to head down and meet them that night after the hike. Apparently the lady slept at outpost for 20 mins and headed up the mountain. They were all surprised to see her on the summit.
When the trail started heading uphill (near the JMT junction), the lady was stopping every 50-100 ft to rest. One of the group members tried to take her pack, but she refused b/c 'she needed her water.' I was able to get her to give up her pack by saying 'Your water isn't doing you any good. You're puking all of it up, and the weight is slowing you down. The most important thing is getting off the mtn right now.'
Talking to the group, I learned that they had friends at Trail Camp and that their plan was to leave her there overnight so that she could hike out on her own in the morning. At that point, I may have gotten a little rude, but starting explaining that she could have AMS, which could progress to HACE and/or HAPE and that if she goes to sleep at Trail Camp, she may not wake up in the morning. Soon after that, I was asked if I was actually a Dr (I'm not). Not sure if they were question the validity of my statements or what...

When we got to the Portal around 930 pm, a sheriff told us that the lady had made it off the mountain and was doing ok.

On the hike down from Trail Camp, I was wondering if I should've done more or should have been more pushy about telling her that she needed to get of off the mountain. When I was asked if I was a doctor or not, I thought that I may have overstepped my bounds and my help wasn't wanted/needed. It made me feel better to know that she did get off the mountain ok, but as we all know, this isn't always the case.

time for a quote from the mountaineering literature

Climbers who reach a summit and return safely despite mishaps or misjudgments are hailed for their heroic perseverance, whereas those who persevere only to be trapped by a worsening turn of events are dismissed as foolhardy. How it alters our viewpoint, that intangible called success.
Howard Snyder, The Hall of the Mountain King, page 177

I would submit, as with most things, that context dictates the particulars...

I would also submit that there is a sort of unspoken fraternity amongst travelers in the mountains in which we, by unspoken bond, treat on another with courtesy and take the safety of all people seriously. I also think there is an especially important tenure earned by the most experienced people in the back-country too look out for the first-timers, weekend warriors, and even the proud/sensate/over-ambitious among us. No matter what, I always believe in giving honest feedback to people I see straggling, lavishing in sickness, and pushing too far/hard.

Yet we find a peculiar impasse on both geographical and cultural levels. Culturally people have this curious sort of individualism that politely dismisses the opinions of strangers, especially if those opinions come off in any way as condescending, mean, judgmental, or even simply negative. This attitude says "Leave me to my business I don't need you telling me how to hike, or that I cannot accomplish climbing this trail/mountain/canyon." People also don't want to offend others or simply put themselves in the awkward position of giving an unwarranted (no matter how sorely-needed)opinion.
Geographically, Whitney Portal is a perfect storm for disaster. It is far enough to exhaust the strong, it is high enough to wind most people, it is prone to dangerous weather, it is reasonably accessible, and it is remote/beautiful enough to retain a Muir/Emerson/Thoreau-esque romanticism.

What does this mean for etiquette?

It means that there are going to be a lot of people who make a lot of detrimental possibly dangerous decisions in a dangerous environment. Yet this is an environment where even sage warnings will go unheeded, dismissed as wanton condescension, dream-crushing drivel, or simply unwarranted nosiness. This also means that Mount Whitney is a place where there will be a larger concentration of more experienced people, yet if each person who is experienced then maybe the sheer persistence of person after person who will tell a sick person to turn back. Maybe, just maybe, in a succession climbers (with personal commitments to truth, and safety) the under-prepared traveler will turn back.

Simply put, I think we need to be prepared to be ignored, give advice when safety and honesty dictate and only more insistantly seize control of a situation when the person making the decision for themselves, is clearly not making the most informed or safest decision.

Also this is a fascinating quote,

But I kind of have a metaphysical hand-up with this mentality (to which I too fall prey). This mentality being one which frames the mountains as a platform for human significance, pride and endurance.

Many lauded Hermann Buhl for his titanic effort on the inaugural summit of Nanga Parbat after losing a crampon, pushing on solo, enduring a standing bivouac, he had simply gambled and won. But he tried his luck years later on Chogolisa and perished.

This seems to me, to paint a portrait of the mountains, as a dramatic dichotomy with humanity's smallness. I go to the mountains so I can look back to the valley whence I came and have a better vantage on it. On the mountains, I see my life from a bigger perspective, from a bigger place. Yet the journey to the mountains would be pointless if I were to simply and solely seek to dominate them. In that focused pursuit they would become my life. Where would I go to get perspective?

What is, then, the point in attaining success in the mountains if I were to lose my life in the process? Is a summit great? Sure! Is the empowerment of accomplishing something bigger than you good? Yes!

But why is success the sole tint to our perspective on the mountains? I think that even defeat and weakness, though bitter, is just as a sacred exaltation as the summit of the highest point through adversity! If one can learn through success, then one can learn through failure. But what values has a application, lesson, or exaltation if the life it was meant to enrich has been lost or sullied in the making?

Very eloquent....and very true!

BTW glad you're down safe dharma!!! and thank you!