Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Spot Device

Hi Just getting back from one of the trade shows and spent some time with a man from the Company .
First I ask about updates and new products that may have a two way message send/receive function. The next product they will release shortly will send to a smartphone as text , still only one way but this may help.

Next we talked about the how and why we see reference about false locations and rescues. About an hour later my thoughts on the problem became very clear: The Spot device is a box that does some things, these things are recorded and stored ,if needed this information is then recalled and applied to a source. Very simple it will miss sending a signal if blocked from coverage but this is rare.

So now enter the button pusher, the set up person and the contact list , and the actions after one of the buttons is pushed by the person or by an object pressing aganist the button. Recall the unit only sends basic data out , seems like time/ date/ lat/ long/ and maybe other systems information not related to location but operations.

Lets ask if the the problems are in the signal/device or the operations of the device? Are people aware of the operations and what acts they do cause a chain of events . The if /then set of guestions should be understood . Do they know what each button can control and how to cancel that operation?

In parting we talked about the free "rescue" or insurance that can be bought with the unit, for a small amount the insurance maybe worth buying not for the rescue but for the cost after being transfered to a medical unit , if you then need life flight out of the area. Just some thoughts I am sure other are more up to date on this end.

Would I buy one , I don't think so but if I did I would learn how to use it ! Thanks Doug

Unfortunately, the company that makes the spot devices choose a poor-quality supplier for their satellite antennas a number of years ago. Most antennas have lost the two-way ability to both transmit to and receive from mobile devices. The satellites can only receive from moblie devices, and as a result all the company's R&D into new products is focused on the one-way transmit functions from the mobile device, like the first and second generation spot products.
I use a spot sometimes when I travel in the backcountry, more for my wife's piece of mind at home than for mine.
I sometimes carry a satellite phone instead, and use the same company's system, so have to schedule call times carefully with when the fully-functioning satellites are overhead, which is only about 1/4 of the time. They only provide about four day's advance notice of the available call times.
I'll get a new spot when the company has new satellites and the devices can both transmit and receive.

Just bought a Spot II and it works perfectly as advertised. As above I use it mainly for my family's benefit. It's not a PLB and I don't expect it to perform like one. But it's certainly better than nothing and I have a lot of solo trips planned this year.

they didn't choose - Spot is owned by the satellite provider Globalstar, and it appears it is this alternate use of their satellites what may have saved the company from going out of business (their phones are clearly useless until they get more satellites up there)

They announced more satellites being sent up a while ago, but I have no idea how that has progressed.

All,

Please feel free to contact me during business hours in PST. My name is Brad Horton. I'm the regional distribution manager for Spot in the west. I'm the guy that spoke to Doug Sr. I would be happy to clear up any misunderstandings regarding Spot. The hard fact is that Spot has initiated over 1200 rescues in 62 countries in the last three years.

My Phone number is (714)497-6765.

I don't claim to know everything, but I think there is a lot of bad information out there I would like to help clear up.

Thx

Some interesting information about SPOT vs EPIRB

http://www.energyindustryphotos.com/a_guide_to_personal_locator_beac.htm

Now that was a good comparison. Just to update. Spot 2 does not float and both units are waterproof. Spot does sell a self-righting floatation case for Spot 2. Spot 1 (personal tracker) did take up to 20 min to get fix. Although, Spot 2 (Spot Satellite GPS Messenger) is much, much faster.

Doug Senior's biggest concern in our conversation was Spot not giving correct GPS location in past Mt Whitney rescues. So yesterday I spent some time on the phone with Geos. Although, I was only talking to one dispatcher, He told me that he has never heard of this and he would look into this, take it to the next level and get back to me.

As discussed at the show, Doug if you can get back to me with dates of this happening, I would be happy to follow up on it.

Thanks again and I look forward to some phone calls.

Here is a link to the newest Spot product coming to market this week: http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=116

http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/forum/...=true#Post79891

This is an example of how far off SPOT can be at times.

I think Doug was talking about the case of a PCT Thru Hiker a couple of years ago who went into panic mode after a little bit of snow fell. Her 911 location showed her a few canyons over from where she was camping. SAR was looking for her in the wrong place. To make matters worse (A perfect exmple of not knowing how to react.), she "got it together" and hiked out and never bothered to let anybody know she was OK, so the search continued even as she was back in civilization.

And, Oh by the way...

We've had discussions about a requirement that a purchaser go thru some type of online training with a quiz at the end so that they prove that they know how the device works before they are allowed to Activate the device.

There are WAY TOO MANY USERS who don't bother to RTFM before heading out with SPOT.

Brad, welcome!

It is always nice to have a manufacturer rep touching base!

Personally, I think the SPOT has been a revelation, and is wonderful technology. I welcome it.

Beyond any doubt, there are problems with the actual use of it in the field...however, 99% of the time, that is USER ERROR.

Unfortunately, as Richard mentions, that user error has presented huge problems with Search and Rescue.....and I agree with Richard that OPTIMAL process would require training.

Understanding that optimal things are often not actually doable (particularly by the grunts who have to rep a product and actually deal with the problems!), it would certainly not be a problem to set up a website that was educational (not promotional) in nature, and to which all would have access to learn.

Brad, here is the thread on that rescue with the SPOT showing her 20-some miles away and on the other side of the Sierra Crest from where she actually was. The whole thread is educational:

http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/forum/...=true#Post62980

" a link to an epic that occurred last week on the PCT, about 9 miles south of Trail Pass. It involved a solo woman hiker nearly freezing, using the "911" feature on her SPOT, and mentions although only peripherally, of the monumental rescue effort put together to find her. Many, many lessons learned by her."

I've been using the original SPOT for about 2 and a half years. Overall, I'm happy with it. There's been times when I've not had the best 'signal'--mostly in highly wooded areas, where the directions claim that it will have trouble--but I've never had it report an incorrect location.

My biggiest gripe is that there isn't a good way to attach it to a pack. I've had to backtrack for it more than once, and anyone who hikes with me has to put up with the question, "is my SPOT still attached?" every 30 minutes.

SteveO, At one time we made a case for Spot one. There are still a few in the market place. You might try cabelas or GPS city.com

Hope this helps.

Richard & Ken,

Please call me to discuss the Rescue in question and the Blog the hiker kept. I have researched this event and have several answers for you.

In short, User Error.

Regards,

Brad Horton

I have been using SPOT 1 for quite some time now. It has always been very accurate and puts my wife's mind at ease. As always, you have to use common sense when in the outdoors. It is nice to have in the event of emergency (but all things can and do fail), but for me its primary use is for "live" tracking information.

Just received my Spot Connect in the mail. Good deal at REI. MSRP was $169, REI listed for $149, less 20% on one full price item through April 10th. No shipping charge. Plus I had a small dividend to apply. This was not even listed through Amazon, where I usually buy everything electronic.

I've had a SPOT for three years... here in flat Florda it works great. I do alligator relocation at night and it is my partner and has sent a messaage for help (not 911) twice when I needed it...
Hiking the JMT and Grand Canyon it gave precise locations every day.
SPOT has been great - no problems... remember, SPOT uses two satellite systems- GPS for location, the Globalstar for communicating this info...

Here's a link to some basic Spot "SOS" info. http://findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=104

Regards,

Hortuna

That seems more like advertising copy. Here's some additional info:

Reviews:
http://www.gpsmagazine.com/2008/01/spot_satellite_messenger_perso.php
Amazon.com Reviews
http://www.amazon.com/SPOT-Inc-SPOT-1-Pe...nDateDescending
Gizmo Report
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13512_3-9839898-23.html
http://www.equipped.org/blog/?p=113
http://www.the-portable-gps.com/satellite-messenger.html
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_SPOT-II_DougRitter.htm

Technical reports:
http://www.gmat.unsw.edu.au/snap/publications/sarwar_etal2009b.pdf
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf08252842/pdf08252842dpi72.pdf

SPOT Device Manuals
SPOT
http://www.globalcomsatphone.com/manuals/spot_user_guide.pdf
SPOT2
http://www.spotmefast.com/SPOT_2_User_Guide_V2_printed_Oct8_2009.pdf

The Amazon.com reviews were extensive and interesting. There are at least two modes of users with different viewpoints. The users with the goal of making their technologically disengaged significant other happy seem almost universally satified. Those technologically engaged users making detailed evaluations of their own safety seem less convinced.

Dale B. Dalrymple
http://dbdimages.com

Hmmm. I thought I'd followed up, but it's not on the other thread. So here's an update. Another guy from YOSAR and I did a pretty extensive set of interviews with Kat,the person who activated the SPOT; her brother (who came out to the Inyo when the SAR got underway); with the SPOT dispatcher in Texas; with California Office of Emergency Services and some testing of various possibilities.

Significantly, I have not talked to Inyo Sheriff/SAR (above my pay grade). We're calling this "Forensic GIS".

Briefly, here's what we found and what may have happened:

1) Kat is a really nice person and happy to cooperate. YOSAR and I agreed her activating the 911 function was reasonable given her equipment (not adequate) and the conditions.

2) SPOT gave me the coordinates they passed on to California Office of Emergency Management. The coordinates were correct for where she was. The SPOT device worked correctly. Spot said they'll give coordinates in Degrees Minutes Seconds or Decimal Degrees. They will also send a description of the nearest named point. Unfortunately, at the time, they would only do this if asked. There was no record of which coordinate values (DD or DMS) were relayed or if a geographic location was also sent. However, what they had on file were right.

Coordinates are: 36.373333, -118.135000 (DD -- SPOT's usual format)
+36° 22' 24.00", -118° 8' 6.00" (Kat has written extensively in her blog about where she was, so publishing this seems OK).

3) Cal OEM then passed the coordinates on to Inyo SAR.

4) Inyo SAR began to search just north of Lone Pine and west of 395.

5) Inyo SAR called Sequoia Kings asking for the thoughts of the Whitney area supervisor.

6) Sequoia expressed surprise that, given Kat's previously known location (well south of Whitney Meadow on PCT) that she would be where Inyo is searching, but they said they'd reconfirmed coordinates.

7) On arrival, Kat's brother also expressed surprise at the location being searched.

There are several sources of error or mistake:

1) We don't know what coordinates went from OEM to Inyo. It was apparently verbal.

2) Using the coordinates that SPOT had, they come out correctly to where Kat actually was.. However, when you put them into Google Earth, you get a strange phenomenon. In most screen resolutions and sizes, the map that comes up shows an orange "A" in the center, leading you to think that's the location you are searching for. It's not, it's either advertising for something at that spot, or a location (e.g. LA Aqueduct).

I'm interested in what other people get as a graphic first result when entering those coordinates.

If you zoom out farther (and with most screens, you have to) you see a green arrow. That's the location of the place you're looking for. As a side note, Google does not have a great set of topo type maps, so there's few geographic locations. Not sure what SPOT uses as their base maps.

I don't know what kind of mapping program either Inyo or OEM used. It's long after the event. That's on the list, but not sure it'll happen... .

3) It's also possible Inyo was not familiar with the coordinate system and entered the coordinates wrong, giving a location well north of the actual. If anyone comes across an incorrect combo that maps to the SAR location, I'm really interested.

So anyway, the take home message is:

1) SPOT had the right coordinates.

2) As a standard protocol, SPOT should always send a jpg map; the coordinate in two types; and a description of the nearest geographic feature. I suggested this to the guy I talked to but, again, above my pay grade... .

3) Same with OEM and all intermediaries. Send a map that everyone can understand.

4) All SAR people have to become familiar with different coordinate systems and practice entering values in different types of software. TOPO! and ArcGIS Explorer (desktop or online) seem to have the best variety of base maps and Explorer has major access to satellite imagery. Explorer also handles more types of coordinate values with the add-in you can get from their resource site.

5) I wrote a "hiker responsibility" flyer for people carrying signaling devices for Sequoia Kings. It's posted on their web site.

George