Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board JMT in July/August 2012 advice and Rx.

Hello,
I'm planning to do the JMT, N2S, next summer. I'm in the process of "lightening" up my gear/kit and welcome any input. My plan is about a 20 day hike, so, speed is no big deal. I'm looking at the Golite Pinnacle, Sierra Designs Traveler, and the Granite Gear Blaze. A 2 pound bag, a Six Moons tent or Nemo meta. Anyone have experience w/this gear?
Also, I need a resupply somewhere above Bishop. I don't really want to hike into southlake, so, I'm looking for what others have done(?)Use a Packer? Rx.
If you don't mind as time goes by I'd like to list my gear and gather your collective input.
Thank you,

Mike

Hey Migolito,
I highly recommend you join the Yahoo JMT group. Lots of great postings and discussion. They also have a very useful downloadable files area with lots of trip planning, gear lists, advise, etc. Here's the link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johnmuirtrail/

I'm planning a partial SoBo JMT hike in Sept. Donahue Pass to Piute Pass/North Lake trailhead with my dog Pijiu.

Migolito:

I am planning the same trip, same time, same pace. I am looking at Muir Trail Ranch for resupply. Minimal deviation from the trail and almost exactly the half-way point, as I calculate.

Taking very different approach to basic gear, which will be whatever has worked best for me over the previous 200 miles by the time I hit the TH.

Mike, fun trip.

The big problem, as you are figuring out, it the stretch from MTR to Whitney, about 116 miles. You can figure out the food issue if you are making 10 miles a day.

However, I'd stop at Vermillion Valley Ranch, as it is very hiker friendly, the first night in the hiker tent/cabin is free, and the first beverage is on the house. Jim, the owner, is an old mountaineering partner and good guy who cares about hikers. Their kitchen serves GOOD food. (you cannot get a meal at MTR, generally).

But I'd either do a resupply at MTR, or plan one at Kearsearge (91 miles from VVR), hiking out to the bear box at the parking lot where you've stashed your food in a marked box 14 days before.

Packer resupply is a problematic issue, and very expensive and unneccessary.

I second VVR if you want a good meal, shower, bed, and a good rest day. After MTR, you'll likely have to hike out of Bishop Pass or Kearsarge for another resupply. The best option would be to coordinate with some friends and have them hike in your resupply for you.

I completed the JMT last Aug/Sept.

I did a lot of my planning on a spreadsheet, you can take a look here: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsh...;hl=en_US#gid=0

I had planned for 14 days, but completed it in 11.

IMNSHO, resupply is often overdone. With reasonable allocation of calories among fats, carbs and protein, and all dry food, the average adult male needs to carry only a pound and a half or so of food per day. So the difference between resupplying once and resupplying twice in 20 days is only the difference between starting out with 10 pounds or 15 pounds. For me, that five pounds is not worth the effort of setting up a resupply between MTR and Whitney Portal. Its less than the weight of the water needed to be carried between Guitar Lake and trail Camp, and its gone in 3 days.

I have researched this pretty thoroughly and found that a resupply in that stretch between MTR and Whitney requires a long side trip off the trail, over the crest and back, maybe a hitch into town, often about $1000 for a packer, an extra trip yourself over the crest and back to stash a cache , a really good friend who will hike it in for you, or a combination of the above.

saltydog, I'd be curious to see a list of one of your typical daily menus, including details of amounts. I can't help but wonder if I would be willing to eat it!

I agree that it's better to avoid a resupply between MTR and WP if possible. Obviously not everybody feels that way though.

You can see my daily menu in my spreadsheet (link in previous post).

My planned daily meal on average weighed 20oz. I did get hungry, but for the most part, it was sufficient. A lot of JMTers report a decreased appetite. My biggest problem was my appetite never decreased but increased.

Thanks AndyL, but I am curious about calories and food composition and specific food choices. The weight of food you personally ate on a particular trip isn't what I'm interested in. I already have that data for myself for a number of trips.

Hm...not sure I understand you, but there's more than just weight information data in my spreadsheet. Check out sheets 4 & 5. There's specific food choices, calories per ounce, calories from fat, serving size, weight, etc...

I basically went to my local stores and searched for the foods with the highest calories per ounce. Then bought what I would actually eat...

Here's a photo of what I packed for food on the JMT:

Thanks, AndyL, I didn't notice that there were additional sheets.

The foods you selected were reasonably calorie dense, about 4.3 Cal/g on average. For comparison, on my last outing the density was only 3.4 Cal/g. Unfortunately, I would be very unhappy with the specific choices you made so your menu doesn't help me

It's interesting to me that you are able to function on about the same caloric intake that I use to maintain my weight at home. Did you lose weight? On a vigorous backpacking trip I find I need a lot more energy, or else I bonk. The last time I went out I took 4000 Calories per day and was hungry each night, and that was only a two night trip. For a week or more I need more food, plain and simple. To get 4000+ Calories per day packed into a mere 1.5 lbs the density has to be at least 5.9 Cal/g. That means I have to eat a lot more fat in addition to eliminating any extraneous moisture or packaging. This, in addition to the often unappetizing food choices, has led me repeatedly in the past to accept a heavier load. Food does you no good if you can't eat it.

I would love to see a backcountry menu that is both energy dense and appetizing. After 20 years I still haven't seen it. Does it exist, for me?

Sorry for the thread drift.

Sure:
All amounts are dry weight. Calories are to the right of each item. I carry nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, with any appreciable moisture content, except for lunch and maybe dinner the first day on the trail.

Can't tell from your pics exactly what you have, but 4.3 c/gm does not strike me as very energy dense at all. Plain sugar or starch is 4 c/gm, and I am getting well in excess of 6 c/gm with enough fat. If you are not getting significantly more than 4, its probably because of fillers and other results of processed foods. CHeck this out

Breakfast:

Bacon 2 oz 364
Pancakes with butter and maple syrup 4 oz 726
scrambled eggs in olive oil or pesto 2oz 364

1454

Lunch, including trail snacks

Mixed nuts 3 oz 616
Pemmican 2 oz 364
granola 5 grain, honey, seeds, oil 3 oz 375

1355

Dinner

Pasta primavera

Pasta 3 oz 336
Veggies 2 oz 224
Sauce: cheese, whole milk, olive oil 3 oz 616

1176

Total calories 3985
Total weight 24 oz


The "or so" is a couple ounces a day for coffee, tea and condiments, orange juice and an occasional limeade, all fully dried real foods, no artificial nothin. Whole dried milk, raw sugar, maple sugar, powdered real cheese etc.

The key to keeping weight down and calories up is FAT. None of the commercial dried stuff has nearly enough of it and its by far the best power to weight ratio fuel there is. I work to get at least 30 percent of my calories from fat in the back country. At home its easy, but not so much in dried foods. Hence the pemmican, olive oil, dried butter, powdered whole milk, powdered cheese.

And I know, I know even I need a theoretical 5500 calories on a strenuous day, say 20 miles with 5000 or so feet of up, but as a practical matter, I have never actually needed anything like that. Given appetite adjustments, the fact that going in I carry an extra ten pounds at least in body fat, and carrying a more indulgent menu on the first day, the above generally stuffs me to a surfeit more often than not. 3500 is my more typical actual demand.

Thank you, saltydog. I appreciate the time you took to respond.

Your menu of 3985 Calories works out to about 37% fat (assuming the usual 9 Cal/g for fat and 4 Cal/g for carb/pro). To get 4500 Cal that goes up to 52% fat, and for the 5500 Cal you believe you need to maintain your weight on a hard trip it would be 82% fat. I haven't tried eating 50% or more fat for a week but I suspect it isn't a good idea to push it that high for at least a couple of reasons.

I'm curious where you find mixed nuts that are so calorically dense. None of the nuts I am familiar with have the 205 Cal/oz of your mixture, except for macadamia nuts. Most are 15-25% lower. Is there added fat in your mix?

"...going in I carry an extra ten pounds at least in body fat"

I was waiting for that caveat. What it means of course is that you're carrying more "food" weight (ten pounds?) than your menu implies. I don't have an alpine belly so I carry the extra weight on my back instead.

ep:

This is really a useful exercise for me, since it requires me to think through my food planning(and training) in more detail than I usually consciously pay attention to.

I didn't mean to imply that I actually need 5500 calories even to make it through a strenuous day, much less to maintain weight over the long haul. That figure is based on Colin Fletcher's theoretical calculations for a 20-mile day with lots of hills, which even he concedes results in lots of leftovers, and I don't believe I have ever reached. I rarely push much over 10 mpd (hence the 20-day JMT itinerary).

As for the fat, I do push that even as far as 40%. 37 is about right for the day I set out. I am with Fletcher as far as the Zone level of 30% for an all around healthy maintenance diet. WHich in itself gets you over 5c/g. For the back country, however I push it based on two principles. First, that there are no bad foods, only bad diets. this means that long term, a healthy diet can tolerate moderate indulgences now and again. Second, its pretty hard to develop a serious deficiency or surplus of anything over the term of a typical hike. Three weeks is pushing that, for sure, but going easy on the miles means I can take it easy on the calories per day and fat loading as well. Not exactly going to be swigging the olive oil like some recent arctic trekkers. But I do load up the nuts for instance (yes very heavy on the macs) with coconut oil, sauces with powdered butter, the shortening I use for pemmican is actually listed at 9.16 c/g, whole powdered milk (which you can't get off the shelf in the US), lots of tricks like that.

As for the body fat, unless you are a competitive body builder, you probably have more to burn than you think, and I am probably a lot less Alpine around the mid Atlantic Ridge than you might imagine. I consider it an emergency reserve, not something I depend on. When I do lose it in the back country, I invariable have leftovers to show for it. It becomes one of the games I play.

I currently have a body fat % (note: NOT BMI) of around 18-20% about a point or 2 north of real fitness. At my fighting weight, it is about 12%, giving me an emergency stash of well over 10 lbs without being exactly obese at the moment.About half of the total excess will be gone by the time I hit the HST in July, and I would expect about the same pattern on the JMT next year.

If you are fit but not an active athlete, you could have an emergency reserve of around 10 lbs and not show an ounce of it.

Hi saltydog - I understood that your calculation was theoretical, but lost body fat changes the numbers. Suppose you did burn 5500 Cal/day while hiking 10 miles/day on the JMT, and lost ten pounds of fat. You'd theoretically only need 3750 Cal/day of food, coincentally similar to what you've found you eat on (theoretically) less calorically demanding days. As I recall Colin Fletcher had an alpine belly as well.

My concern about eating a 50% fat backpacking diet for a week or three is not that it is unhealthy, but rather that it might be less palatable and more difficult to digest, particularly at altitude. Fat is also an inferior fuel for physical activity. But 35% or so fat is something I know works okay, for me, on the trail at least.

Your guess about the typical hiker body composition is a good one, statistically speaking, but is incorrect in my case. My body fat was measured at 8% some years ago. If anything I am a bit leaner now. For my weight that means I have a TOTAL of about 13 lbs of fat. It would not be a good thing if I lost 10 lbs of that. Indeed, on trips where I have lost as much as 8 lbs of body weight I felt tired and weak. Most people get home and are happy to be a little thinner. I strive to put the weight back on as soon as possible.

I found your menu items interesting, and I'll be thinking about them as I go about reworking my own food plan for a long trip later this year. I've already considered adding a little oil to the nightly glop. But I know I'm going to have a difficult time giving up a few items that contain a lot of water (like bread, salami, and cheese). I can imagine dehydrated replacements for these but I wouldn't want to eat them. You have to be able to eat it.

Years ago, the first time I did the JMT, I left MTR with about 25 lbs of food. Over the next eight days I ate it all and wished for more.

Migolito;
I have done the JMT a couple of times and stayed at both the Muir Trail Ranch and Vermilion Valley Resort. Last time I was there there (summer of 2010) the MTR was ramping up to cater to Backpackers much more than in the past. The main advantage is they are right on the trail and you do not lose a day going to VVR. It's about 7ish days to MTR from Reds. No need to leave the trail at all. We went out Wolverton to finish on the High Sierra Trail (made the right on the upper Kern Trail) the last time which I would recommend as the finish is quite nice (the down to the Portal can be quite busy) and was ~12 days from MTR to Wolverton.
If you are concerned about weight get the Western Mountaineering bag at about a 1-lb, a Big Agnes Seedhouse SL1, and the Vapor trail by Granite gear (~ 8 ozs less than blaze). Bring whatever food you will eat but something like 1.75 lbs per dayish.

Have fun, a pretty pleasant walk in the woods all in all

humans have HIGHLY different ages, body fat, degree of tone, speed, innate metabolic rate, etc, etc

lets' start with a famous explorer's quote

The uncultured yahoo when he gives a feast ( and I prefer it his way) merely increases the amount of the ordinary meal…but civilized people…like to measure their social status by the number and variety of the courses, which I consider a barbaric habit.
HW Tilman, Two Mountains and a River page 598

I am one of those who can live on a quart of Tang and munch GORP three meals a day with very little variety. Just moderate altitude ( like the Sierras) reduces my appetite and I only need 1500 Cal/day for something like, say, half a JMT. This also has the advantage of reducing the load carried. Of course, on longer or colder or harder trips, after burning off some stored fat, the Calorie requirement goes back up. Your mileage may vary

ep/Mag: I got a bunch of similar dishes if you're interested, and nothing approaching 50% fat (40 max) on any given day: curries,chili, tabouli salad, pasta primavera, pasta w/ scampi or shrimp in pesto, alfredo,or marinara sauce,chicken veg soup/stew, dried mango, papaya, pineapple, currants, pemmican, veggie/cheese omellettes, homefries, real OJ, real lemonade, real tomato juice, European Ovaltine, espresso Bustelo, green tea, yerba mate, whole milk, several flavors of granola, NORP, (no old raisins or peanuts)

Another weight-saving strategy specifically designed for MTR-WHitney. I have a wood gas stove that weighs about 6 ounces and represents the equivalent of unlimited fuel. Burns wood (actually pine straw, cones, twigs, litter) where that is appropriate and trash where not. So all those used vacuum pouches or zip lock bags? Book pages? Found trail trash? Fuel. Burns hot, clean no soot, and burns in two phases: flames and then coals. Micro campfire late into the night on handfuls of scrap. Have to check elevations where its ok to gather/burn fuel, but with a little planning, I figure I can do with one 8 oz fuel bottle for the Whisperlight, and enjoy luxurious amounts of hot water the whole trip.

Elevation delimited restrictions on campfires may start at 9,000', 10,000' or 10,400' in Sierra wilderness areas and national parks. A long list of lower elevation , high usage (popular camping) trail areas also have campfire restrictions. I haven't found any place with a complete listing for all jurisdictions. CA campfire permits and wilderness permits allow only specific fuels to be used in stoves in these campfire restricted areas. For example, from the Sierra National Forest site:

"Persons with a valid Wilderness Permit or California Campfire Permit are not exempt from the prohibitions listed above. However, persons with a valid Wilderness Permit or California Campfire Permit from the Forest Service may use a portable lantern or stove using gas, jellied petroleum, or pressurized liquid fuel on the Sierra National Forest."

Trash and local materials are not legal fuels in campfire restricted areas. Those are the regs at this end of route 6.

Dale B. Dalrymple

saltydog: I'd be interested in seeing the details of your meals, specifically what you buy and how you make them at home, and also how they are prepared in the backcountry. I'm always searching for new ideas.

I think a whisperlight is a curious choice for a lightweight summer backpack on the JMT (nevermind a second stove that can only be used in certain locations). Fuel can be picked up at MTR afterall. Perhaps it underscores the vaguaries of personal choice with regard to weight tradeoffs. Afterall, one could argue that a stove is unnecessary. I sure wouldn't bother with one if I were content with just Tang and gorp.