Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Wag Bags and permits

Bob, can you clarify the "why" of your position on refusing to use a wag bag on the mountain?

absolutley
we were drinking our brews and laughing at how stupid the process was. You see we have been hiking this rock since we drove our pieced together 53 chevy in 1968 up the hill. We were using a old broken hiking pole to push some bags around. I understand that message sites and facebook are worlds that many who live on this site live in . Its how many who dont get off the couch or interact with people these days surrive. But back to the topic, carrying your own poo out is stupid, marrots, bears and other animals dump the day away. put up a old fashioned outhouse and let the folks in jail empty them like that freak who was robbing cars parked at trailheads.
now its just my opinion , you may not agree. but please spend some real time outside and away from message sites or forums.
Im going outside myself
see you on the hill

Got it. I think. Wagbagging poop on Whitney is stupid 'cuz the bears and marmots don't have to do it. And something else about a '53 Chevy, social media, and not getting outside enough. Ooooo-kay . . .

The wildlife scat-control question aside, let's imagine everyone on Whitney in the summer followed your example along a narrowly-defined trail, with just a few relatively wide spots in the road like Outpost and Trail Camps (wider because people inhabit them, by the way). Would I be out of line in projecting that by October the MMWT - and especially the two camps - would resemble the floor of a pigeon coop? We could rename Whitney: replace the W with an S. Then the winter snows come, then the spring melt, then . . . what?

To me, it's simple: poop is a bad thing in concentrated, uncontrolled amounts - particularly around water. And especially human poop - giardia and E-coli are no joke. Aside from the poor aesthetics of a crap-laden trail to mar your Whitney hike, the dip-and-sip streamwater would eventually become contaminated. Even with the wag bag system in place, Whitney is a red exclamation mark in the otherwise mostly pristine water landscape of the High Sierra.

It's about numbers - as in the ridiculous number of people trekking up and down Whitney in the summer. There's nothing comparable to it in the US that I'm aware of. Other trails in the country that don't have pit toilets, and suggest cat-hole burial techniques for hikers, don't have Whitney's concentrated summer population along a very constricted, mostly rock trail. Once you're above Mirror Lake, there's not a lot of cat-holing options - you're either gonna go on rock or in water. Neither is a good option, since what goes on the rock eventually winds up in the water . . .

I appreciate the honesty of your position, but the reasons you offered for refusing a wag bag just don't fly. After whittling away the chaff, it seems to boil down to either (1) "That's the way I've always done it and I'm not going to change", or (2) you can't be bothered with such a chore, even though you agreed to it when you signed and accepted your permit.

Me, I'll just continue to be "stupid" and pack it out on Whitney.

you said it best


I still think the jail rats like that low life who broke into cars at trail heads should hike up and pack it out, the sheriff in Ariz has the best plan
make the low lifes pay

and no
next year I wont pack out any poo

Sorry "old bob" but it is too painful to read others try to reason with you. I think you need to start using a wag bag.....marmots are definitely smarter and more trainable to use one so start squatting! Sorry folks but not worth trying to convince someone about principle and respecting nature.

I am not sure who the low lifer in this story really is.

Why to focus on "old bob" and trying to convince him at all?
Let's acknowledge that a substantial percentage of Mt.Whitney hikers has a similar attitude towards wag bags and that the current policy just can't be 100% enforced.

So in reality we have only 3 options:
1) Stationary toilets
2) Area littered with wag bags
3) Area littered with poo

What do you prefer?

If you want to talk about reality, 1) was never 100% successful. The real choices are:
1) Stationary toilets and poo in areas more than 5 minutes away.
2) Area littered with wag bags and poo
3) Area littered with poo

What makes you think that those without the discipline and capacity to operate wag bags ever had the discipline and capacity to use the stationary toilets?

Dale B. Dalrymple

.......like I have always said.....opinions/thoughts are like belly buttons: "everyone has one". (you get the drift)
The "reality" is one's respect and desire to care for nature or lack of it. I respect ya all for offering a discussion to bring forth a resolution, really, but there will never be an answer, no solution other than
1)step over the WB's (hope it doesn't explode in higher altitutde)
2) pick it up ourselves, or
3)leave it for the rangers.
4) start training marmots (my #1 pick)
And to all those who do pick up after themselves: "Thank You"
for your moral integrity and respect for the mountain and for others.
.....and that's all I gotta say 'bout that.
HN

Perhaps it is time for "Poo Hike 2011"

I might plan a hike to trail camp the week after labor day with the express goal of picking up trash and wag bags.

Wonder if we could get a permit waiver.....

Tom, if I wasn't a couple thousand miles away, I'd be there with ya. In spirit, my friend.

Yes, you can.

I think that the reports that I'm hearing are quite motivating to me, to push for a process that will enhance the situation.

Problem is, you have to watch out for an unintended consequence.

You could do the credit card thing, charge against a wag bag number printed on the bag, found on the trail. Problem might be, a person could simply not use a wag bag, and we are back to the same problem that existed when the poorly functioning solar toilets were there.

I think the concept of forcing people to clean the trail who suffer from mental illness and confusion, not people who are criminal in nature, is a particularly cruel and tortuous concept. I wonder if it involves whipping and beating them into unconsciousness, while they call "dad, dad, dad." I suppose there will be volunteers for that duty.

this thread needs more pictures!

While I used, and carried out a wagbag on Russell last year, my preferred method is eat a lot of cheese and oatmeal before heading out. That'll plug up the system long enough to do your trip and get out before the Big Unload.

Not trying to sound like a tough guy, but in my personal life, the people I interact with fall in to one of two categories: 1.) those that respect me, and 2.) those that fear me. Because I refuse to get walked on. This should be the new "golden rule". If the people that use our public lands don't respect it, than they should be in fear of some type of penalty. With respect to this wag bag topic, I guarantee you that the problem will take care of itself if there is something to be afraid of. Right before anyone decides to break a rule or disrespect something, there's at least a quick pause to think about what the penalty may be. Risk vs. reward.

People don't steal stuff when they are in fear of getting their hand cut off if caught. I'm not saying we should sew some @#$holes shut, but if you make a strong enough example out of those that don't respect you, the problem takes care of itself.

New rule: Make everyone sign a contract agreeing to pay a $10k fine and 6 months in jail if caught crapping where they aren't supposed to. If they refuse to sign it, no permit (and you may as well lock up those that refuse, because they're the ones crapping where they aren't supposed to!). And then start enforcing it!

Problem solved!

I'll play along. I'm interested in how, after one gets all these 100,000 signed contracts, one moves to the enforcement part of the equation?

Tell us what then happens, when the rangers see the Wag Bag, as show in the picture?

garys,

Are you sure about oatmeal?
I have a perception that it has an opposite effect.

actully according to the cops who gave the homeless BUM a attitude lesson.he screamed '

WAG WAG WAG

ba ha ha ha


lesson learned, dont mess with the man

Last summer I took 9 Scouts to Whitney via the JMT. We stopped before entering the zone to visit the woods. We spent as little time in the zone as possible so we wouldn't have to use the bags. Trying to convince them to use the bags wasn't going to happen. out of 13 people (9 boys, 4 adults) two used bags.
We spent a week going from Kearsarge to Portal and no one ever checked our permits or asked to see our wag bags. I have been to Whitney twice and never been checked. I don't think the Park Service has enough man power to check everyone passing through. Just too many people going through. I have been checked other places in SNP but not in the Inyos.
This subject comes up every year along with the drink the water debate and nothing ever changes. Some will respect the rules some wont.