Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Here I go again.... ( Waste Management continued )

I believe that the human waste "problem" is overblown by many people. Left to its own destiny, sh*t disappears. If it didn't, the world would be covered with a 10-foot deep layer of it.

If deposited on the surface, it is eaten by bears and marmots, and it is dispersed and diluted by drying, wind and rain. Feces that dissolve sink into the soil and dissipate underground, in the same process used by city water treatment plants to purify household water. It's called filtering.

I don't know how long this takes, but my anecdotal observation for the Mt. Whitney trail is this: In early summer, when some of the snow along the trail has melted, small piles of it left by winter and spring visitors are exposed. It is common to see a half dozen between Trail Camp and the summit, but I probably wouldn't notice them except for the embedded toilet paper. Passing by those spots a month or two later, all I usually see is the toilet paper. The sh*t has gone to its eternal reward.

I bet that—for sh*t left on the surface—it takes between 2 and 6 months to completely disappear. Certainly less than a year. If loose like diarrhea, a lot less. Compacted, very likely more. Buried or placed under a rock, definitely more.

The following is a dumb analysis, but illustrative. Assume that 500 piles of sh*t around a camping area are sufficient for the human waste "problem" there to be considered offensive. For Trail Camp, assume further that the first summer camper (of 60/day) arrives on June 1. So, without a proper disposal method, Trail Camp becomes offensive before the middle of June, and remains so all summer.

If if sh*t didn’t disappear, camping areas that see fewer people per day would still become offensive, although later. A site where 4 people spend each night would take all summer. One person a week would take several years, but it would still get there. The fact that it doesn't illustrates my point. To take this to a ridiculous extreme: Since people have been camping in the Sierra for centuries, the whole mountain range ought to be a stinking mess. But it isn't. What humans giveth, nature taketh away.

Animals contribute, too; think of trails that pack animals are used on. The horse and mule piles encountered are certainly noticeable, some offensively so. But these are the fresh ones. I think it takes only a few weeks for horsesh*t to pretty much dissipate.

I am not minimizing the problem at Trail Camp, because it is serious. It would be lessened if the Forest Service encouraged camping at other nice places along the trail. I've indicated a few of them below (but not my favorite ones). The FS should also encourage people to defecate not only well away from water, but also well away from their campsite—to create lower densities of it and allow time to work its magic on it.

So sh*t disappears. I don't know the time scale, and it certainly depends on the conditions. I would conduct my own little research program in the backyard, but the neighbors would object.

<img src="http://img.clubphoto.com/jerboa/198178131/512/beac64b587ff945fd446a49289afa905/image.jpg" width=600>

My own habit in less populated areas is to burn the TP and leave the sh!t on the surface for a faster breakdown. I have used this method at a area I frequent and sh1t that was left on the surface is just about deteriorated by the end of summer. Stuff that was buried stays there for at least 2 years and sometimes more. As long as you can get rid of the TP the sh1t will take care of itself.

I agree with Bob and am glad to have an opening to post my thoughts.

Nature has its way of taking care of organic matter. Hauling it to a landfill or a sewage treatment plant might not be the best option, nor can I see how carrying it around with you in a bag is more hygienic for an individual.

A swath 100 yards away and 25 yards wide on both sides of a 10 mile trail has something like 2.6 million different spots to go, if even 10% of the trail has useable seclusion there are still 260,000 places.

If there are 20,000 people using the trail per season and they haul out 3,600 to 4,000 pounds my guess is half is unaccounted for. So from the last ten years there would be 40,000 pounds piled up around the trail and camp sites. But there isnt much, because it composts every dry period and dilutes every rainy period.

I grew up around cow pastures and have lived on cattle ranches and trust me, the stuff breaks down and returns to the soil.

I almost always use Kevin's method except I pack out the paper, (hard to get 100% burned), and usually spread/smear the feces as thin as possible, (carefully, to avoid physical contact). I also look for spots that get better sun exposure for faster breakdown. If it is a heavily populated area just walk farther away. If this can't be accomplished, then perhaps it is best to dig a hole and bury it, carefully avoiding damage to the flora that is hanging on in spite of the servere growing conditions.
For me the most offensive thing is finding paper all over the place and/or discovering that someone felt that a perfect campsite is also a perfect place to dump.

Assuming the above messages are correct, wouldn't it be nice if everyone who went up there had the knowledge and inclination to take care of their poop in a way that wouldn't cause problems, like those who posted the above messages. Unfortunately, that probably isn't the case.

I recall Rick Kent's experience [Ref] , "Be careful when picking up rocks to secure your tent. Earlier this year I got my gloves all muddy when picking up some rocks at Outpost Camp. Then I realized it wasn't mud."

How many more incidents like that would there be if there wasn't an effort to have people use wag bags?

Also, some of the ideas in the above messages appear to have problems. For example, Kevin commented, "I have used this method at a area I frequent and sh1t that was left on the surface is just about deteriorated by the end of summer." This says to me that before the poop deteriorates, and with all the people that use the Main Mt. Whitney Trail (MMWT) each day in the summer, there's going to be a big mess if people don't use wag bags.

But maybe I misunderstood the above messages. To me it seemed like they were advocating that people should feel free to poop on the ground and leave it there, with the assumption that people would be responsible enough not to make a mess. I think we're only having this discussion ultimately because too many people in the past have been irresponsible with their poop on the MMWT.

I think the MMWT is in a category all by itself. I don't frequent it that often except as a descent trail and never camp on it. Maybe my method is not the best for the MMWT but for less frequented areas I think my method works well.

As always, an interesting discussion. I guess this next summer will be the grand experiment!

I have a particular interest, as Kurt will be giving a slideshow talk at the SoCal Adventure16 stores in Jan on Whitney, and I'll be giving the first, as he'll be in transit from Argentina.

In this talk, we'll be talking about trip preparation, in particular. Included in that will be the permit thing....and the waste issue, and I think we want to give people ample warning about the issue, and do what we can to facilitate compliance.

Whitney is such a fascinating area, in the context of wilderness management. I've gone around and around on the issue, and am still not sure what I think. The main trail certainly does not meet my definition of solitude in the description of wilderness. But does that mean that one should de-certify? That would seem to provide a simple path for industry to eliminate wilderness....just hire people to hang out in a wilderness area....too many people, de-certify, cut down the forest (or whatever). Or, cut the number of people allowed in. I suppose it is a balancing act.

For what it is worth, for those who have not read it, here is the link to the Environmental assessment of the whole concept:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/inyo/projects/whitney/whitneytoiletEAdec03.pdf

As a person who regularly reads this message board and rarely chimes in I figured this is one subject that I have experience with.I have actually hiked the MMWT and dozens of others in the Sierra over the last 30 years and keep this aspect of my trips relatively simple.I take tp and zip lock bags,the good ones.I find a spot well off the trail,do my business,put the used tp in 1 if not 2 zip locks and haul it out.Simple.
I've never found the need to try one of the solar toilets on the main trail.The smell deterred me most of the time,sometimes it was a mess outside or sometimes they were just locked up.I've followed pack animals many times too and find them more offensive then anything I've seen on the MMWT.Except the time I saw a German man in a speedo and trail runners.
So yes,I endorse the "sh*t in the wilderness"policy and will continue to do so.It shouldn't offend anyone that actually hikes and spends time in the wilderness and if it does....watch your step because there are alot of us out there.

While it may be a dirty topic, all the discussion is interesting. The fact that feces disappears in less than one year is the good news, and certainly an answer to those <a href=http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005406;p=2&r=npwm#000035>in the other thread</a> who asked what would be done about the non-compliant hikers.

I think the mandatory WAG bag requirement is necessary to help minimize Rick Kent's "muddy glove" experience. There are too many Once-and-done Whitney-only hikers camping on the Main Trail, and I think the situation will improve in 2007 with the mandatory pack-it-out rules.

Here's plan B after wag bag experiment:

when picking up permit... that person and all on the permit are also given a colonoscopy prep kit.

Clean 'em out. Then no need for wag bag for several days.

You know Harvey, I actually thought of doing something like that for myself. But when I thought more about it, like having to buy the stuff at the drug store and having to stay near a toilet for a number of hours with the artificially induced runs, I finally concluded that the Wag Bag was easier.

However, cleaning out in advance seems like a good idea for someone who has difficulty with the Wag Bag concept or going without a toilet in the wilderness in general, as long as there aren't any possible problems, like dehydration, that could affect a strenuous hike afterwards.

..or the standard issue usfs butt plug, batteries not included and parental supervision suggested, not available in stores, while supplies last, allow 4-6 weeks for delivery, only $19.95!

I agree with Bob R.

Please don't get me wrong. I did not argue for or against any specific method of human waste management. And I didn't say what I do myself, although it should be clear that, when there are requirements, I abide by them. In particular, I did not suggest that people should sh*t on the ground at Trail Camp. I simply offered some observations and thoughts about the longevity of feces left behind. I am most comfortable sharing information that can be backed up independently, but I have little here.

I will mention one more thing, however, and this was touched on by kevin, hoser23, and fish395: In areas where I think my temporary resting spot may be stumbled upon by others, if I cannot bury the TP deeply I will carry it out in a Ziploc sack. But I'm not fanatical about it, because it's just paper. My wife likes a certain brand of TP and, when we moved to our new house, I called the company to ask them about its safety with septic tanks. The customer service rep said to put a piece in a glass of water, stir it, and see what you get. I did. The TP vanished, and I was left with a glass of cloudy water. So I would think that TP left on the ground disappears in the first rainstorm. But it doesn't, and it seems to have a longer lifetime than feces. So I carry it out.

On the topic of carrying out used TP: I was under the impression that if buried in a cat hole with the rest of the dump, it would be ok. Does it not decompose within a few months, too?

Re: Steve C question – I was always told burn the TP or pack it out. Certainly allowing it to blow about is not the answer, but you’d think it would rapidly deteriorate since it disintegrates in water. The problem is that ground moisture is insufficient and the TP doesn’t biodegrade fast enough. Then, should animals or weather dislodge it from the cat hole you have a real mess.

Another question. I thought pooping in the open created an attraction to lots of animals, particularly bears, and is especially bad practice if you’ve made camp in an area. Not so?

Another question. The PDF Ken posted indicated that cat holes caused the soil to lose production. Assuming you’re the right distance away from water (was always told 200 feet), the process I leaned was a.) scrape the duff to one side, b.) scrape the topsoil in the other direction, c.) go down at least 8 inches, d.) …<insert music here>…, e.) cover with soil, then the top soil, then the duff. When they say the soil production is lost, does that mean people aren’t careful with the duff and topsoil? I’m dating myself but this is Boy Scout stuff 5 decades old. Is there a better way to do this? Does this practice degrade soil - seems to me it would improve the soil, if anything.

While I can see the logic of a terd on a south-facing slab on a hot sunny day becoming a harmless caramelized doobie by the end of the day, that may be the answer well into the wilderness but not in the heavily traveled Whitney areas. Wag bags seem to be the only solution there.