Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Mountain Line Attack in Sequoia

No Problem MS, nothing wrong with a little friendly discussion.
I too don't see the need for a gun in the wilderness, I suppose if one was walking through the heart of grizzly or cougar country then a gun may come in handy. I suppose another place that a gun would come in handy would be in Angeles National Forest, AKA "Gang Land".But that's another debate.

I was with someone near Tuolumne who sprayed a large, bothersome, black bear with pepperspray. The bear did not react. Prior to the pepper spray, my companion (who played baseball in his day and has a good throwing arm) hit it hard on the rump with three baseball sized rocks. On the third hit, the bear ambled behind some brush.

At the Vermillion Valley Resort on Lake Edison a few years agoe the owner's wife told a bear story. Apparently they had lots of bears because of bagged garbage at the adjacent Nat'l forest campground. It was such a problem that the forest service supplied them with 10xpepper spray (10x the concentration sold commercially). Soon afterwards a bear came, and everyone came out to watch what would happen when the spray was applied. The owner sprayed the bear, and just then there was a little eddie of wind. Microseconds later the owner and a person who had been near him were running full speed for the showers and shucking their clothes as they went. The VVR owner's wife still had to wipe tears of laughter at how fast the clothes came off, but they gave up on using pepper spray.

I think my wits are a better tool against bears than pepper spray.

During my career in law enforcement I used my pepperspray a number of times and all but one of those times I had the spray blow back on me. It's really frusterating when you're trying to hand cuff someone and you can't see or breathe!
Agencies are going with pepper foam these days which is more effective and much less prone to blowback. Maybe if someone is really intent on carrying pepper with them it should be in the foam form.Plus, it shoots a lot further too.

Ken, Dirty Harry & Lapsing Memory:

The only appropriate use for bear pepper spray is in the event you are physically attacked by a bear. You don't "spray it on" anything as though it were mosquito repellent or camouflage paint. The only place you spray bear pepper spray is in the bear's face and the only time you are that close to a bear's face is if you are nuts or the bear's attacking you.

Note I said BEAR pepper spray --- which are products like UDAP, Counter Assault, Guard Alaska and a couple of others with EPA registrations intended as a defense against griz and black bear attacks. I'm not talking about police OC sprays or the the little can of mace on the key ring you brought for your girlfriend or some non-EPA registered, non bear intended junk sprayed on a non-attacking bear or mountain lion --- but I'd at least try it on the lion.

Like I said in my orignal post, black bears are, in general, considered docile but they also have big teeth and claws and could weigh a few hundred pounds and run 30 miles an hours. They have also KILLED people --- however rarely.

Rarely is good enough for me so I'm carrying the bear spray.

I think you missed my point.

If, indeed, bears are actually attracted to pepper spray, as indicated by the numerous authorities I've cited, and bears are able to smell things even in cans......I'd find it ironic to hear that a person was attacked by a bear trying to get the bear spray sitting next to them in the tent (wouldn't make much sense to put it in the bear can, would it?)
This scenario would convert the rare, to the more likely........not a good move, in my book!

Hey Yeep,

The URL below is the California Fish and Game page on reported bear attacks. There have only been 15 since 1980.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/news03/bear_incidents.html

Everyone reading this please note their were NO deaths and in many cases the attacks involved cups and a sow.

If you people are so afraid of the big bad animals, stay out the forest and stay home so a pitt bull can bite you. I am sure there are more of them attacking AND definitely killing people.

I'm curious, who here has had an encounter with a mountain lion? What were the circumstances and what occurred? I would guess that most encounters involved seeing the lion running away. If the lion did not immediately run away did it try to size you up first?

Rick,
Two "encounters" - both uneventful. In both cases I was running on a trail in the early AM, once with a group of four and once alone. Locations are Chino Hills State Park when I was alone and the San Juan Trail in Cleveland NF off Ortega Highway in Socal. In both cases the big kitty cat took a look and headed off into the bushes. In both cases I got to within about 40-50 feet before seeing them. I run in several areas where sightings are common but with over 30k miles in 10 years just these two sightings.

Hikin Bob,

The woman cyclist who was attacked several months ago in S. Cal was recently on Larry King Live. She was fully aware what was going on while the lion was biting down on her throat. This awareness went on for several (if not dozens) of seconds.

Since the lion attacked her throat (which will nearly always be the case in order to suffocate you), isn't it plausible that one could pull a weapon out of one's fanny pack and deliver a counter attack on the animal?

I am just wondering what the difference is today vs. 150 years ago when folks went into wild places. I know the grizzly is gone from most areas, but the mountain lion population is growing steadily in most western states. I suspect 150 years ago, most folks probably had a gun with them before heading off into the wilderness.

Hey, Dirty, if a felon, ex-con, drug addict or mentally unstable person is legally entering the wilderness and potentially exposing themselves to those same dangerous animals as you, why shouldn't they be able to carry firearms to also protect themselves? All's fair in love and survival!

Okay, I'm neither pro or anti guns. I sit firmly on the fence on that one. That said, I have to admit, the line about pulling a gun out of a fanny pack with a mountain lion hanging off my neck had me giggling. Now Scotthiker may indeed be that calm, cool and collected, but me? I'd be using every ounce of martial art and krav maga training I had to try to get the thing off of me. Even if I had a gun in my fanny pack (with me, not a good idea, I'd probably shoot my fanny), my focus would be on getting free of the cat.

I am sure everyone would react a little bit differently to a mountain lion attack. I for one have no idea how I would react. My first thought would probably be utter disbelief this was happening, which might then cause me to freeze up and have no chance of escape. However, even if I managed to react quickly and then did shoot myself in the foot, that probably would not end my life.

I still would like to know if people out there believe that a mountain lion attack is more (or less) likely today, then say 100-150 years ago. I would expect it to be about the same given current mountain lion populations. The following link has some population information dating back to the 1920's.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/lion/

I am not advocating people carry guns. However, if I am in a high risk area, I am more likely to carry one.

I think I finally know why the Rangers at the Lone Pine Ranger Station find it necessary to state that guns are not allowed in the National Parks. I've always found that part of their speech amusing because I would never carry a gun, but I guess there are a lot of people who would.

Nor would I.

I would not take my dog onto National Park trails either, yet I see people attempt this every year.

This has sure run on for awhile, but the whole notion of being attacked, maybe killed and eaten, by a predator evokes all sorts of creepy feelings in people.
The thing about lions is: if you see them they know it and apparently are programmed not to attack other than when they are very sure of complete surprise. All the accounts I've heard (or read) of people who have survived lion attacks are to the effect that you never see it coming until it's way too late....chilling thought. The other thing is: if you are part of a group and stay together, they won't attack either.

In the end, it looks like vigilance when you're near the sort of cover they like to operate from is the best defense so that you can turn to make eye contact and some noise, but they have many advantages.

While I wouldn't bother carrying firearms on the Whitney Trail, nor on trails near or above timberline, it can be different in other places. There don't seem to be deer and other prey above 10K, so why would lions go up there? But maybe they might follow YOU up a trail! Here I don't know, just guessing.

There have been times when I've been alone, was going through wooded areas where I really did not want to have my gear torn up and my food stolen by a bear,days hike from resupply, when I did carry a powerful handgun just to have if a situation arose where a "Deus ex Machina" was needed. For this I make no apology and I'm not sure whether it would have helped with a sneaky thing like a lion.

As a young man, I was involved in law enforcement for a short while, but in 32 years as a civilian I have carried firearms while hiking at times, and in other circumstances with a carry permit. Not once during that time have I ever needed it, but it only takes once I suppose.

Cheers...Adrian

This thread has certainly kept my interest so I have continued to search for more information with which people could make up their own minds as well as fuurther educate myself.

I have already expressed my opinion so I will leave you with the URL:

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/lion/

Make sure you also read the Outside Magazine piece as well. This information appears fairly objective to me.