Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Down vr Non-Down Jackets

Just wanted to take a quick survey. Does anyone have first hand experience testing both down and non-down coats in the same weather? If so, what is generally warmer?

Ive got a couple North Face Gortex jackets that I use on most high altitude trips. I generally have a base layer, another mid-layer and then a fleece and the NF jacket. I like the ability to shed layers as needed and I do get quite cold. However, watching documentaries on most trips to Patagonia or the Hemalayas, most people are wearing down coats.

Does anyone have any particular guidance on this subject? *IF I get a down jacket, I would think it would be best to go right for the 800 fill. My only concern is that the down jackets dont seem to come in Gortex, but then, they do seem most popular in altitude. If down offers the warmer solution, why are they so cheap, I mean, I can get a NF down for under $200 and an EMS jacket might be around $50 on sale.

any help would be appreciated

SP: I'm sure the more experienced members of this board can speak to all the specs, but my reasons for down are:
1) Best warmth
2) Low weight (some might laugh at that coming from me!)
3) Small packing size

While my polartec shirts or jackets are indeed warm, they can't scrunch down to the stuff0sack size that my down jacket can. If you add a waterproof shell on top of the down, it can become a downright oven if you need it! I don't know if anyone makes a Gore-tex/down combo jacket (not separate parts), but I'd sure buy one of those!

More specs from the experts, please!!
-L

I've got a North Face Nuptse down jacket and I absolutely love it. It is so warm. Only drawback, of course..is that it isn't "weatherproof". Of course..if it is cold enough to be wearing it..the likely precip is going to be frozen..so likely to bounce off or be brushed off. I went with the Mountain Parka jacket though...into which the Nuptse zips..giving a total waterproof/warm system.

I like the way the North Face stuff zips together..I can also use my NF Denali jacket..and zip that into the shell...good feature. Marisa has a Mountain Hardwear down jacket..and she loves that as well. Both of them compress so nicely when stuffing into our packs.

I've not owned a synthetic fill jacket..but I have owned a couple synthetic fill sleeping bags. The most recent of which..the North Face -20 Tundra I've taken on about 4 trips into temperatures down to 0 degrees and I was cold at that temperature. I don't like the Polarguard Delta fill..I don't think it is nearly as good as down. Also..the Tundra bag, when compressed..still takes up a lot more room than a comparable down bag. I just ordered a Mountain Hardwear Ghost -40 down bag in anticipation of doing some higher and colder trips..

Sorry..I know your question was about jackets..but if I buy another jacket (can't see that happening for a long while)..I'll stick with down..and if available..a GoreTex membraned one of some sort (if they even make one)...

Regards..and good luck!
Chris

skunkpack-I have used both the down and polartec parkas. Down is always the warmer for me. Feather friends make excellent down jackets and parkas. The material they use for the jackets is pretty good about keeping you and the down dry. They may be worth a look. I have several of their jackets and they are very good. Best regards, Tim

The basic tradeoff is that down is lighter and more compressible for a given warmth, but is uselss when wet. I only use down sleeping bags, but have used both for jackets. As people have mentioned, often it is too cold for wet precip, or one can layer with a shell.

However there are combo weather-resistant jackets with down insulation, e.g. Mountain Hardwear's Sub Zero with Conduit SL exterior. Their top of the line is the Absolute Zero (parka or full-body suit), which stops being quite so compressible but is phenomenonally warm (and fine with snow, probably also rain but nobody could wear this in above freezing temps...).

julian

For the goretex/down in one jacket check out Cabelas (www.cabelas.com). They have a couple different models that use both in the same jacket.

down is the bomb for winter. look for a dryloft shell. feathered friends has excellent quality and i hear that western mountaineering has started to make down jackets. if it is anything like their sleeping bags the quality will be impressive.

Thats why I love this board. Thanks to everyone who responded. I think Ill be excecising my credit card. BTW, I did go to Feathered Friends across from REI in Seattle about a year ago...really nice place and the sales staff as quite helpful

I have a Feathered Friends Helios jacket that I wore a couple a weeks ago under a goretex shell at 20 below and I was very warm. I find that it is a great climbing layer that I can stuff in a daypack and wear under or over other layers to stay warm in almost any situation other than ultra low temps. I have noticed that the Helios seems to have gotten "puffier" over the years, but FF typically will put more or less fill in their stuff if you request.

As others have said, the main negative of down is when it is wet (I still haven't figured out why the Canadian geese don't freeze while paddling around in the winter), but at very low temps liquid water isn't a big issue.

I'm also a down advocate.

Sam, you've brought up a great point about down and getting wet. It is actually difficult to get a down garment/bag saturated. If those that own them have tried to wash them, it is a major chore to get them soaked.....as the down naturally repels water. Also, nowadays, the fabric that high-end manufacturers use is more water-repellent than ever.

The only issue that may come up with using GoreTex type of fabric, is that Goretex is not totally efficient in allowing moisture to escape. In seriously cold environments, that can be a real problem, as if the moisture hangs out before it is out of the garment, it will freeze INSIDE the garment/bag. This is one argument for vapor-barriers.

As Clint Eastwood's partner said in "Eiger Sanction", I draw the line at hauling ice.

Like everyone else has stated, down is the way to go. It is lightweight, compacts well, and is extremely warm. I have a Marmot 8000 parka myself, and it is about the best around, except for Feathered Friends.

I just ordered a new custom-made fleece jacket and pants from a company called Beyond Fleece (www.beyondfleece.com). Their Cold Blooded line is about the warmest fleece available, is very warm (rated to about 15 degrees), wind-proof, and water resistant.

I will be bringing these items with me this August when I spend the night on the summit of Whitney.

Michael T.

I got the Sub Zero Parka for Aconcagua and was very pleased with it. Definitely a nice jacket.

-Rick

You're gonna need it there.

Aconcagua was the coldest, windiest place I've ever been. El Nino year. Dumb. Harvey

Just an FYI...don't know if they are great deals or not..but Campmor has quite a few down jackets on sale right now here is the link to the down jackets sale (this link will take you to Campmor's site):

http://tinyurl.com/2fs99h

Chris

I have the Mountain Hardwear Sub Zero jacket. I love it. It has kept me warm and toasty in the Yosemite high country, Mt Shasta, and on my Mt Whitney trip which ended yesterday. These jackets would rarely see rain anyway, as they are too warm for above freezing temps. I prefer down for the same reasons as everyone else. Most down jackets have a DWR finish to the shell which is supposed to repel light rain and snow. I wonder if you could use seam sealer on the sewn areas, and a spray on waterproofer for the shell? There are enough aftermarket waterproofing products to make even the cheaper down jackets waterproof enough.

Ok, based on everyone's input, The MH Sub Zero seems to be very popular. My resulting question is, is there a huge difference between 650 fill and, say 800 fill? Even the NF Nuptse has only 700 fill. Does this inherently mean the NF is warmer than the MH?

I guess it depends on what you think the coldest environment you think you will see, and how much you want to spend, to help decide between 650, 700, or 800 fill. The Mountain Hardware Sub-Zero SL Parka, a very nice parka (a few of my friends have one), is probably good to -10, but wear several base layers (long underwear, fleece, etc) at that temp. It sells for around $300.00. I personally have a Marmot 8000 parka, with 800 fill, and it's good to at least -30, again with several base layers. I'll be using it on Aconcagua next year. It lists at $575.00. Probably the best is the Feathered Friends Rock and Ice Parka, with 800+ fill. It will keep you warm anywhere on the planet, but costs $725.00. Hope this helps.

Michael T.

Actually, that does help. If temps fall to -10F, I would think 650 should do just fine with a bit of layering underneath. Since I wont be in -30F, it probably doesnt matter then. In doing a cost comparison, the NF, MH and the Montbell are all about the same, roughly $165-$185 or so. The Montbell is 800 fill, though, but not as stylish as the MH. The Feathered Friends 'may' be a superior product, but Im not sure its worth the extra cash if Im not going to be in a climate that requires it. Has anyone used the Montbell alpine? Any feedback? Seems like a well made jacket

As a clarification, higher fill power is not warmer per se, it is just warmer for the same weight. By way of illustration with not real numbers, a jacket with 5 oz of 800 fill down could be the same warmth as a jacket with 6 oz of 600 fill down. Said differently, fill rating just tells you how much loft you get per weight of down and you can get that same loft by adding some more down of a lower fill rating.

The higher fill down is also supposed to be more durable.

You should be wary of the fill ratings in any case as it varies with how the down is prepared and tested - no legal standards in the US. I tend to believe the ratings from top outfits like Feathered Friends more than from cut-rate places.

Ken, I'd like to know your source when you say that it is difficult to get a down garment/bag saturated. I want to talk to them about the down bag I used on Mt. Waddington a number of years ago. I spent a miserable ten days or so, trying to sleep in a soggy thing that occupied as much volume in use as when it was in its stuffsack.

Difficult if trying to wash it, perhaps, but in actual use in a damp or wet environment for more than a few hours is a quite different story, in my experience. Coatings like DryLoft will help, I’m sure, but I bet they just delay the inevitable.