Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Any experience with oxygen?

Setting ethics aside for a moment I'll add something else to consider...

I have used oxygen on a couple of mountains: Everest and Cho Oyu. As you ascend and eventually make the decision to begin using oxygen your body gets used to it and it becomes harder to adjust to climbing without it. Part of the strategy with using oxygen is to start when you know you will have enough to use it while up high without running out.

One issue with bringing it on Whitney is that from Trail Crest at 13,600' you are walking a long way (2.5 miles) at high altitude on your way to the summit at 14,497'. If you start using oxygen and your body becomes dependent on it and then you run out it is difficult to get down to lower elevation very quickly. It's a long ridge line up there.

I think a better strategy would be to try to work up to this elevation by doing lower peaks first. If the altitude at Whitney is a concern plan some climbs on other peaks in the Sierra first to get comfortable with it before attempting Whitney. White Mountain Peak is also an excellent place to get to altitude easily.

I'd just hate to see someone bring oxygen just to make them feel a little better or because they like new gadgets and not realize they could actually be hurting themselves in the process.

I stand with Kurt. My first ascent of Whitney was in 1972...16 hours after leaving sea-level I reached the summit with a screaming headache, a bit of tunnel vision, diminished clarity of thought, and greatly impaired motor skills. It was indeed a very, very long stagger down the ridge, and I was totally alone.
In those days we described everything as "altitude sickness", but in the year's since medical science has defined AMS, HAPE, and HACE. The symptoms I was feeing were indicative af the onset of HACE (Secor says he has seen people with this below 10,000 ft.).
It is fortunate that I was able to get down to Trail Crest where a friend was waiting and then down (with some assistance) to below 11,000 ft. where the symptoms subsided.
The point is that a person dependant on oxygen runs an increased risk of acute mountain sickness or worse if they are suddenly deprived of gas and the size cannisters we are talking about here do not provide sufficient oxygen to get all the way up and down again. That could increase rather than decrease your risks.
I don't advocate the use of gas on peaks in the Sierra, but might consider carrying it as an emergency supplement when leading a group of newbies. In that case, the ascent would end the minute the bottle came out.
Then again, I'm not the mountain police. The great thing about this sport is that you can do things at your own pace and level of difficulty. The only thing I ask is that people make wise choices so as not to impact others on the mountain.

My apologies for the sermon.

I wonder if it would help people with diminished lung capacity. My mom had cancer last fall and had the upper left lobe removed which is about 2/3 of the left lung. Not that she would climb or hike with me but she use to enjoy cross country skiing and its doubtful that she will take it up again. Pardon the lung fixation but with her cancer and my valley fever, we've had a less than spectacular year as far as pulmunary issues go anyways. Would it be possible to hike Whitney or similar elevations with one lung or a lung and a third? It doesn't seem likely, but if anyone has done it or can give info on this I'd sure like to know.

Rafael...

"If you start using oxygen and your body becomes dependent on it and then you run out it is difficult to get down to lower elevation very quickly."

I'm not sure why some one's body would become dependent on it at 14K. As referenced, the hit off the O2 I took made me feel better, but not for a long period of time. No doubt the power of proper training would be a better enhancement. All I know is my cynical hiking companions were impressed by relief it brought to headaches at altitude. Sometimes those few minutes of relief are what will get you to a summit. Has anyone become dependent on O2 at only 14K? If so, I'd like to hear about it.

Anybody know where I can get a couple of sherpa's to head up the main trail with me?

I will say it again... train, train, train... and then train some more. Run hills until you feel like your going to throw up. Go to some altitude to train if you can. I used to live at sea level and head straight out to my climbs. I have actually gone from sea level to setup a base camp in Colorado at approx 12,000 feet on the same day. NO PROBLEMS. it is because I had trained my #@$%^& OFF. If you have no hills where you live, strap on 40 LBS and hit stadium stairs. YOU DO NOT NEED OXYGEN at 14,000... YOU NEED TO TRAIN... HARD!!

Desey, I got the worst altitude sickness when I was in the best shape -- because it gave me the strength and endurance to get farther and higher in the first day. You may be one of the 25% who feel little or no effects from the altitude.

Lots of training will NOT prevent or alleviate altitude sickness.

14k is really not that high...

Remember, altitude acclimitization is cumulative. If you are going to climb whitney, try your best to spend as much time as possible at altitued in the immediately preceeding week or two. It really will help significantly.

It is worth noting that oxygen in high concentrations is well known to be toxic. There are 3 main types of toxicity: pulmonary, retinal and CNS (brain). These toxicities occur at high partial pressures of oxygen and therefore something that you should be aware of when considering pure oxygen like some of the devices mentioned above. Oxygen metering devices (using a regulator of some type) reduce the amount of pure oxygen being delivered to mimic what it is near sea level and therefore are much safer.

For those quoting FAA regs. The concerns the FAA has about altitude and hypoxia are based on the fact that aircraft operators with aircraft that will get up to certain high altitudes can get there relatively quickly. Or that pressurizid aircraft can experiance "explosive depressurization" and leave the crew breathing high altitude air suddenly. When you get to altitude in just a few minutes or suddenly you are more suseptable to hypoxia and the affects of hypoxia are more dangerous when you are in command of an aircraft compaired to hikers who can just sit down for a while.
I can see where you may think that the FAA would be a good source of info on oxygen use and altitude but remember that oxygen is a drug and the medical community would be a better source of information on it.
Thanks. Deltatech

Deltatech:

You couldn't have it more wrong. The medical community has an abundance of research on oxygen, but only a very small amount on use of oxygen to treat altitude-related sicknesses. The volume of research that the FAA (and the military) has produced about oxygen and altitude is significantly larger. The reason the FAA regulates how pilots and passengers use oxygen is because they are charged with ensuring safety in flight. They determined that pilots lose the ability to function properly without oxygen in certain situations using carefully controlled studies and instituted regulations to assure that pilots would use oxygen to ensure that they could function properly. Yes, pilots may get up to altitude more quickly than climbers, but the hypoxic effects are basically the same. BTW, the regulations that I cited have nothing to do with explosive decompression as there are another set of FAA regs requiring quick-don oxygen masks in high-altitude aircraft to address that problem.

While clearly there are medical uses of oxygen, very few physicians or health care providers have any training in high altitude medicine. Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease and other medical indications for oxygen have little in common with high altitude sicknesses. There are a few specialists in high altitude medicine out there, but the vast majority of physicians and health care providers know precious little about the area.

You may consider oxygen a drug, but the government agency that regulates drugs, the FDA, does not. I can walk in and buy a cylinder of oxygen with no prescription, no forms and no regulatory oversight whatever. Even a kid can walk in and buy oxygen.

Sam, as to the issue of O2 as a drug, the FDA does consider it a drug, and medical use oxygen does require a prescription from a licensed practitioner. This is differentiated from "recreational O2" I'll admit this is confusing, and I've never really thought about it (I do have the required license):

http://www.theoxygencompanyinc.com/Oxygen_Web/Main/faqs.htm

1. How is recreational oxygen different than medical oxygen?
Medical oxygen is concentrated to levels that must be monitored by a doctor when being used. You must have a prescription to obtain it and a license to dispense it and it may be expensive. Recreational oxygen does not require a prescription or a license, and it is safe and affordable to use. There is no danger of overdose. Recreational oxygen is not intended to treat, cure or diagnose any medical condition. If you have a condition related to or affected by the use of oxygen, you should consult with your doctor prior to use of oxygen.

http://www.crpa.com/edutrain/oxygen_admin.html

Legal concerns

Enrichment systems producing EANx gasses for diving require that pure O2 flow through at least a portion of the system. While this seems like a minor consideration, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) regards oxygen intended for humans as a drug that cannot be purchased without a prescription. The FDA also requires that high-pressure systems containing oxygen for human use be clearly labeled as such. While the FDA has not enforced regulations concerning oxygen supplies, this situation may change as more divers in the US seek EANx certification.

http://starbulletin.com/2001/03/20/features/story1.html
(The oxygen used in such bars is industrial, not medical grade, which is considered to be a prescription drug.)

http://www.ozonegenerator.com/Main/ocon_long_content.htm
(Note: This oxygen concentrator requires a prescription from your physician to purchase.)

Ken-

I agree that it is confusing at best. You can buy exactly the same medical grade oxygen (100% pure) from a pilot store or even industrial gas supply house without a prescription. The FDA does not regulate pharmacies per se, but only the registered drugs that they dispense. Each state has its own pharmacy board that regulates pharmacy for that state. If you look at the actual enforcement actions, the FDA has effectively decided not to regulate oxygen and only enforce any medical claims made for the product. For example, they state: "FDA recognizes that there are many circumstances under which it would be impractical to insist that oxygen be administered only under the supervision of a physician."

In addition, the FDA has taken an official position to defer regulation of oxygen to each state as shown in the statement below regarding oxygen bars from their web site:

the agency applies regulatory discretion to permit the individual state boards of licensing to enforce the requirements pertaining to the dispensing of oxygen, says Szymanski. Many states choose to allow oxygen bars; others discourage the businesses by requiring strict compliance with the law. However, serious health claims made for oxygen, such as curing cancer or AIDS, or helping ease arthritis pain, would be investigated by the FDA, adds Szymanski.

Hmmm ... this seems to have dissolved into a bit of a semantic debate, no? Prescriptions are required for medical oxygen primarily because of cost concerns - i.e. who is responsible for paying for the oxygen, concentrators, etc. Granted, politics runs amok in this issue as well, but that's a debate for another place and time. Much of the medical, military, and FAA data originally were stemming from the same sources - back in WWII when airplanes started being able to fly high enough where this became an issue. The divergence over the years, however, is due to the fact that the medical community is concerned about patients with underlying lung disease being chronically hypoxemic at normal altitudes while the FAA and military are far more concerned about sudden decompression during which the pilot(s) tend to black out and massive badness ensues - which occurs far faster than the onset of AMS, HAPE, HACE, HAR, HAFE, etc ... though the origin of the oxygen question did come from pilots getting altered at altitude in WWII. The point remains that you can still purchase concentrated oxygen, even without a prescription, as long as you are willing to pay the cost yourself. (as opposed to medical insurance, Medicare, etc.)

As for some of the issues posed previously ...

Oxygen does have toxicity associated with it but this is usually over a more extended time period (rather than a quick day hike). Also, this is typically in the presence of factors predisposing you to potential damage by free radicals - among the most commonly studied predisposing factors would be Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS) and bleomycin use (a chemotherapeutic agent). The doses people here are describing are being delivered by low-flow oxygen systems (i.e. nasal cannula) and are fairly nominal - unless you've had bleomycin previously, usage of these low amounts of supplemental oxygen should be fairly harmless (necessary or not, ethical or not ... those are different discussions).

In the attempt to address Rafael's question: supplemental oxygen could theoretically help your mother, but it really depends on what is limiting her exercise - this may sound somewhat silly since she had a partial lung resection, but even under those circumstances, the diffusion of oxygen into the body may not be what's limiting her exercise tolerance. The lack of that portion of lung, however, could limit her ability to effectively exhale CO2 fast enough - for which supplemental oxygen will have minimal effect. If her lung diffusion (DLCO) is low, then perhaps ... if not, it's likely not gonna help.

NICK59349 ... I dunno where to get a sherpa. LMK if you figure that one out.

Just stirring the pot with my 1.5 cents ...

Lurker-

>>> while the FAA and military are far more concerned about sudden decompression during which the pilot(s) tend to black out and massive badness ensues

That is not true. The FAA regs applying to oxygen use are only for unpressurized aircraft. By definition, unpressurized aircraft cannot have sudden depressurization because they are not pressurized. The FAA is specifically concerned in those regs about the degradation of flying performance related to altitude hypoxia in unpressurized aircraft. Pilots of pressurized aircraft are not required to breath oxygen at all, because the cabin pressure is typically in the 6 - 8000' range. The FAA regs that apply to pressurized aircraft only specify the availability of quick don oxygen masks so the pilots can get them on fast and avoid blacking out in the event of sudden depressurization. The military avoids this issue in most aircraft by having the pilots breath oxygen the entire flight.

>>> Oxygen does have toxicity associated with it but this is usually over a more extended time period (rather than a quick day hike). Also, this is typically in the presence of factors predisposing you to potential damage by free radicals

That is not correct. In experiments that the Navy conducted, oxygen was toxic to divers in a swimming pool in less than 1 hour. Damage to lung tissue and corneas has also been demonstrated after a short time breathing 100% oxygen at sea level.

While I believe that oxygen is overkill on Whitney, everyone has the freedom to make that decision for themselves. If you do decide to use oxygen, I would highly recommend getting the advice of someone trained and knowledgeable in the use of high altitude oxygen and not rely on this board (me included).

>>> I dunno where to get a sherpa. LMK if you figure that one out.

Go to Nepal and you can find a large number of them. There are actually some living in the US now as a result of the many US Himalayan climbers inviting them over. I met a few that are attending University of Vermont. They are amazing on the mountain.

Oh Good Grief! Would you guys please give this a rest? This thread has gone to hell.

Leave it to me to take the thread wildly off-topic:

<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060504/ap_on_re_as/nepal_060412105967"Nepal Rebels Agree to Peace Talks</a>

I read yesterday that the U.S. is considering reestablishing aid programs that we discontinued when the King grabbed power early last year.

Gee, Steve C, I was actually enjoying the discussion and even learning a few new things. Perhaps you could allow each of us to make up our own minds about what is interesting. We have a moderator here already, thanks.

<a href="http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20060513p2a00m0na027000c.html"> Canned oxygen at 7-11</a>

Sales of canned oxygen to create fresh market for Seven-Eleven Japan

Japanese convenience store operator Seven-Eleven Japan has breathed fresh air into its product lineup by announcing it will add cans of oxygen to its shelves.

The firm said it would make an entry into the rapidly expanding oxygen market and begin selling cans of oxygen on May 24.

Oxygen has emerged as a popular new product and sparked the creation of city "oxygen bars" that provide oxygen for customers to breathe in. The convenience store operator will sell small portable cans. It is the first retailer among Japanese convenience stores and supermarkets to enter the oxygen market.

The idea behind the product is to allow buyers to replenish their oxygen levels anytime they feel a lack of it due to stress, fatigue, or other factors. Seven-Eleven Japan developed the product together with Tokyo based Hakugen, a manufacturer of miscellaneous lifestyle-related goods.

A drop in the amount of oxygen in the body can make people start to yawn and sigh. Normal air contains only about 21 percent oxygen, but the oxygen concentration in the cans is 95 percent, and breathing it in can reportedly bring on a feeling of invigoration.

Each can contains enough oxygen for 35 two-second inhalations, meaning each can lasts for roughly a week if it is used five or six times a day. At first the canned oxygen will be sold in Tokyo, Kanagawa and Chiba prefectures, then at all 11,000 of Seven-Eleven Japan's nationwide stores from June 14.

The oxygen comes in two flavors: "strong mint" and "grapefruit" and will cost 600 yen a can, including consumption tax. (Mainichi)

In case you are wondering...

600 yen = $5.50 or thereabout per can.