Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Altitude Question Again

Hi everyone, I am heading up the mountain on 6-29 for an overnighter. Last year I didn't make it due to the altitude, I even took Diamox before and during the hike, so this year I am going to take my time and do it over two days. I think I am going to try Ginko this time and drink more water. Does anybody have any thoughts if this sounds like the right thing to do? I mean not taking the Diamox. I am coming from sea level in Ohio and want to do everything possible to get to the top this year.

Also, my wife and two children are coming out with me but won't be hiking, they said they would like to go horseback riding, maybe up in Horshoe Meadow. Can anyone make a recomendation on where they can do that?

Thanks for your help!
Kevin Harper

To provide some insight on the altitude question; it is not a matter of what supplements you take to enhance your physical condition, but how you treat your body during the ascent. Coming from basically sea-level, does provide a slight obstacle, but it doesn't mean your going to have problems. I live in Phoenix, and have climbed several 14ers, with in days of departing Phoenix. Depending on your pyhsical condition the number one thing is to try and train as much as you can prior to the climb. This will always help. However, if you are in average to good shape, the summit is still atainable with out training. The key is to set a good pace. Don't try and race up the mountain, allow your body to hike at a pace it can handle. Water is also very important, since the chemical make up of water is 2 parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen it helps hydrate your body, while providing oxygen to your blood stream. It is also very important to provide your body with energy, even if you aren't hungry. examples (trail mix, snickers, granola bars, etc.) Another technique that is used frequently on higher summits, is pressure breathing. This is achieved by taking in deep breaths, piercing your lips, like you are going to whistle, and blowing as hard as you can to exhale. What happens is you will only let out a little amount of air, comparatively, and in-turn it builds up pressure in your lungs, which will push the oxygen into your blood stream much easier. If you plan on using pressure breathing as a technique, it is a good idea to incorporate it at the begining of the hike. This will help you aclimate that much better, and you should notice the pay off at higher altitude. Typically every 10 breaths is sufficient, but the more you do it the better. Climbers on Everest typically will do 5-10 pressure breaths for each step. Anyway, that is my two cents on the subject, hope it helps.

three of the most important things...water, water and water... Oh yeah and stay hydrated.

We live at a similar low altitude here in St. Louis. When we plan our mountaineering trips, we allow at least two days prior to hitting the trail for acclimation.

For instance, when we did Whitney in '01 (trip report under "highpointing" on my <a href="http://www.mtritter.org">WWW page</a>), we flew to Reno, drove down to Mammoth Lakes (8,000') and spent the night there. The next day, we did a day hike up Glass Mountain to about 11,000' and again spent the night at Mammoth. The following day, we drove down to the Whitney Portal and hiked up to Trail Camp (12,000'), summitting successfully the next day.

It takes a while for your body to adjust to altitude. The "train high, sleep low" theory seems to work pretty well. Mammoth is high enough that you know it, coming from the midwest, and doing a fairly tall day hike works well in between.

And, yes, stay well hydrated! Neither of us had any bothersome effects from the altitude, and we weren't taking anything more than Advil for the whole trip.

I've done Mt. Ritter (13,150') on one day less acclimation, and I noticed the effects the last 500' of that climb...headache, a bit of nausea, so I'm convinced that planning the extra day at intermediate altitudes more than pays for itself in comfort and success at higher altitudes. Considering the cost, permit hassles, and effort involved in getting out to Whitney, it makes sense to take an extra day or so to improve your odds of a successful trip!

Obviously the more training the better,ideally three weeks at altitude before the climb, hardly practical for us working folks.Diamox does help but you need to take it 2-3 full days before the climb,taking it during the climb would be worthless. It works by shifting the oxygen hemoglobin dissociation curve and changing the acid base relationship of your blood.In other words it allows a higher saturation at a lower
PO2(partial pressure of 0xygen).This takes a few days to change so take it earlier.

Robert Rainey,

I take it two days prior going over 9,000' overnight. I find it to be effective when taken that way; then a day or day and half beyond that.

This year I am going to experiment taking a lower dose. I've read where it is just as effective as 125 mg./twice a day.

We shall see starting next weekend.

The trend with Diamox is to go with lower dosages. It seems that a very low dose, 125mg, taken as a single dose before bed, seems to be as effective as higher amounts, this is usually continued for three days at altitude, in this case for the whole trip.

But, another strategy that will help a lot is to spend the night before beginning at Horseshoe Meadows, which is at 10k, instead of in Lone Pine or at the Portal. This really helps, and is my secret weapon for climbing the east side.

Go back and look at the Altitude sickness post from about May 23,2003. You can also find it by searching "altitude sickness" using the search link above under post a reply.

Here's what John Jacobs @ Adventure Risk Managment wrote to me: "According to what I have been told by Peter Hackett, the foremost authority on altitude sickness research, Diamox should be taken on an 'as-needed' basis, in the event that symptoms appear or worsen...."

~Swifty

Acclimatization, acclimatization and more acclimatization is the only solution that is guaranteed to work.

Whether in <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~ellozy/elbert.html">Colrado</A> or in <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~ellozy/mount_whitney_2002.html">California</A> I spend a few days acclimatizing at moderate elevations before going to 14,000 feet. This summer I am planning on spending a few days in Mammoth, at around 8,000 feet, and doing training hikes from there.

Would that AZclimbers comments about H20 providing oxygen to your blood were true. Then we could just drink a lot of water to keep our blood oxygen saturation (O2 sat) high while at altitude and the hydrogen generated in that reaction would just float us to the summit (or explode) <g>. The basic equation of animal metabolism is sugar + water -> carbon dioxide (CO2) [plants do just the opposite]. It is the oxygen in the air that you breath that is picked up by red blood cells in your lungs and increases your O2 sat - thats why we huff and puff at high altitude regardless of how much water we drink.

To answer your basic question about what you should or should not take to help you deal with the altitude effects - one of the big discoveries in medicine during the current genomics revolution is that people are different. So the research says that diamox has an x% chance of helping you and ginko a y% chance, but that just means out of every hundred people that percentage will get a benefit. Individually, you are either a zero or a one and the only way you'll find out is to do the experiment. Since you've already tried diamox and it didn't help, go ahead and try ginko (start several days before you climb and you may want to try before you leave home to see if you have any side effects) and see if it helps you. In addition, and as others here have said, try to spend a day or to hiking at altitude before you climb Whitney (it takes about three days for your body to shift the oxygen association/dissociation curve naturally - diamox does this same thing chemically, hence the need to start 2-3 days before you climb) and drink lots of water along the way. Pressure breathing as described above is also a very good thing to do and I suggest doing it every few breaths when you are low and shifting to every breath as you get high. Don't forget to keep doing it on the way down.

My own little crusade, to present an alternative viewpoint, is that the theory of pressure breathing just does not stand up to scrutiny. We have discussed it elsewhere so I won't rehash all the details. I'll just say I've done a pretty complete review of mountaineering texts and high altitude medical information, and none present pressure breathing as an effective remedy to hypoxia. This is not to be confused with *deep* breathing, which makes a lot of sense.

I maintain that puckering and blowing is best left to birthday parties.

MJJ-

I'd like to hear more about your perspective on pressure breathing, particularly any scienftific literature on the subject. When I first started climbing, I didn't use it and got bad headaches. Since the time when an experienced high altitude climber (who also happens to be a doctor) taught me how to do it, I've not had headaches, including on Kilimanjaro at almost 20,000'.

If you have a post somewhere else, let me know where I can find it.

Herb Hultgren MD, on p. 313 in "High Altitude Medicine" says "Voluntary positive pressure breathing (VPPB) and pursed lip breathing (PLB) have been studied at actual and simulated altitudes. Both maneuvers resulted in a modest increase in arterial oxygen saturation."

He goes on to say that these methods are not without danger. They have caused rupture of pulmonary blebs with resulting pneumothorax, and also mediastinal emphysema. He recommends voluntary hyperventilation as better and safer.

References are of course given. If interested, you might get a copy through an interlibrary loan.

Hultgren, professor of medicine at Stanford until his death in 1997, is well-known in the high altitude medical research field, although I haven't seen his name much outside of such journals. He climbed all over the world. His obituary in the American Alpine Club Journal reads "His name is forever linked to High Altitude Pulmonary Edema (HAPE) and he knew more about this than anyone living." He first discovered the syndrome, studied it and determined its causes, and named it. He also did classic studies on coronary artery bypass surgery.

I'll leave the responses to the altitude question to the expers. As to your question on horseback riding for your wife and children, I can help. I'm doing a day hike on 6/28 and my daughter and girlfriend will be horseback riding from the cottonwood pack station. Call Dennis at (760) 878-2015 and he will take care of you. Its $65 for 1/2 day and $90 for a full day. The pack station is about an hour from the portal campground. The guide will take them wherever they want to go. Have a great time.

Thanks Paul, I had just booked with him for the 30th. I am sure they will have a great time.

I'm not an expert on the physiology, and biological processes involved in pressure breathing, but I do know this: last year I started having a tough time after about fifteen of the "ninety-nine" swithcbacks, i.e. bad headache, slight dizziness, lethargia. I remembered a show I saw on TV with the (at that time) editor of Backpacker, where a guide was explaining pressure breathing, so I thought I'd try it. I found that simply taking very deep breaths (completely filling my lungs) every third or fourth breath got rid of my symptoms in about five minutes. The rest of the switchbacks and summit were easy.