Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board planning to summit in October

A few friends and myself are planning to summit in mid Oct. (spending one night overnight on the mt). any thoughts on special planning for this time of year, or suggesions for alternate hikes if weather does not permit an ascent up Mt. Whitney when we are there. planning on having crampons and trekking poles with us. do we really need ice ax and training in self rescue?

October can be a very nice time. It is way less crowded and often not much snow has fallen by then, if any. It is colder then in the summer, and the nights are longer.

My concern would be dressing more warmly and dealing with ground that is in some places icy.

I wouldn't guess that ice axes, crampons and full snow gear would be warranted unless there is an early winter. Heavy winter snows don't usually come until latter. But then again it can snow any month of the year and you might end up wading through some.

Last year Bob R. got snowed on at Trail Camp http://members12.clubphoto.com/robert634908/3782375/guest.phtml but other years there has been little snow in October.

You will know when it gets closer.

Jessica,
Thank you for your reply. We are doing a lot to prepare for our attempt to summit Mt. Whitney. Mainly, we are looking forward to being in the mountains and on the trail. A summit would just be the icing on the cake. Realize if the trail is impassable, we will stay safe and turn around. Expecting it to be cold at night. I scrolled back to look at the postings from last October to get an idea of the conditions for that month. Plan to keep an eye on the postings when September and October roll around.

Thanks again,
Chris

Chris, you are going at one of the better times of the year. Many fewer people. skeeters should be gone. It will be colder at nite, and you will have less daylight.

It would be a really good idea to spend the nite before at either Cottonwood Lakes trailhead (10k)(to the south) or Kearsarge Pass trailead (9200) (to the north) for enhanced acclimatization, which will really help. Directions to each are at:
http://www.etreking.com/eTreking/Pages/SouthSierraEast.html

Because you are camping on the mt, you do not need to get a really early start to begin the first day, so the drive to the trailhead is not so much a problem, and you can sleep in a bit.
Do lots of 5-10 mile dayhikes wearing your anticipated pack weight.

What part of the month are you talking about. Early October tends to be very dry and much cooler. In 2001 I attempted Whitney on Nov 5 and froze my butt off at trail camp in good weather.

Do you really need an ice axe in October? If you need crampons, you will need an ice axe and rudimentary snow skills at minimum.

After a death of an El Cerrito man last October attempting to glissade from Trail Crest, the forest service posted a sign...People Die Here. I watched a man struggle at the cables for over 20 minutes at the cables from Trail Camp the first weekend November...and he was geared up and experienced. This is not to scare you; it to make you think before jumping into something that becomes infinitely more dangerous than it was before a new blanket of snow.

I have been snowed off this mountain in mid-October and I have had fabulously fantastic weather it all depends on what October you run into. However, you will need plan your clothing for sub zero temperatures on the summit. I have seen single digit temps on the summit in August and September.

Thank you, everyone, for the recommendations. I will pass them on to the other members of my group. We are really looking forward to our time on the mountain. I read some of the threads about the unfortunate accident last October. We all know that being in the wilderness comes with risks, sometimes life-threatening risks that we have all chosen to accept and do our best to decrease by preparation and choices. I appreciate your input and advice so that we can do our best to limit our risks and increase our enjoyment while on the amazing Mt. Whitney.

Ken,
so glad to hear that the skeeters should be gone. I wasn't looking forward to returning home full of bug bites! seems like no matter how much you use repellant - those pests get the better of you.

My group of three will be overnighting the main trail for the first time in early/mid October as well (9th-11th). We're from sea level, so we'll do a night in Lone Pine, a dayhike to Lone Pine Lake the next day, that night at the portal campgrounds, up to Trail Camp for a night there, the next day summit (or not) and get back down to the portal. I've gleaned every bit of information about the trail and conditions from the message board I can find and it has been an invaluable resource in our planning. There are two things I still can't really get a great feel for even after reading the message board:

1.) The ice ax and crampon debate: Take them no matter what seems to be the common refrain--what about for those of us who are not trained in their use? It seems that I keep reading that most of the Whitney injuries and deaths occur because somebody without the proper knowledge glissaded with crampons on or did something else foolish because they didn't know any better (I know changing weather and conditions can certainly cause exceptions for even the most seasoned veterans). Is it better for the untrained to leave them behind and just turn around if conditions warrant? Or is it better to carry them with the intent of using them only in an emergency situation or to practice... Is it even safe for someone to practice self-arrest/glissading/crampon technique at the *BOTTOM* of the trail crest chute? Gotta learn somewhere... Will the correct conditions even be feasible in early October?

2.) Regarding weather: I know it isn't exactly like forecasting weather in L.A. (although that is even pretty tough these days--three digits?!) and you can't predict from one season to the next what it will be like. I understand the possibility of beautiful clear weather with mild temperatures is just as likely as heavy snow, 40+ mph winds and sub-zero temps and until a few days before you get on the mountain--if then--you probably won't know exactly how it will play out. I'd really love to not lug 50 lbs of equipment up to trail camp, but being prepared for all possible conditions seems to point me in a "not-so-ultralight" direction. Does anyone have any suggestions about sleeping bag ratings (or bag layering) or clothing layers that can help me pin down how much to take without overdoing it? What is the lowest overnight temperature/highest winds I should prepare for at Trail Camp? So far I've heard it all from "Ah, just bivy" to "Take 0 degree bags and mountaineering tents" to "The less experienced have no business being on Mt. Whitney because they will die or at least make someone else rescue them"...

I think I'm getting Whitney research overload-- anybody out there want to take a crack at bringing me back to reality?

Colorado Lady, are you going to be there when we are or later in October? Good luck with your trip.

"Is it better for the untrained to leave them behind and just turn around if conditions warrant?"

ABSOLUTELY!!

gear: a 25ish bag and a tent that can be guyed out somehow, ought to work fine. You might wear some clothes to bed. I was comfortable with a 30-deg bag. Bivys work well, if you can tolerate the confinement.

In my opinion, I would say that even inexperienced should take along crampons and maybe an ice axe. They have to start somewhere.

My reasons: In October, if there is enough snow to warrant using them, it will likely be unconsolidated, and will make going slow. But crampons will aid in traction for those breaking trail and those tramping through after the first person.

If there is snow, on the trail there will not be the 45+ degree slope of hard snow or ice that would require an ice axe being held ready to arrest. More likely, people will be able to break a walkable trail over the slope, similar to the patches left a few weeks ago. In that situation, the crampons would be very helpful, but the ice axe might never be used.

On the other hand, if there is so much snow that an ice axe would be required, the snow would be so deep that you would not, as first-timers, even want to attempt the climb -- the deep snow would slow your progress to a snails pace, and you would run out of both time and energy.

While it is best to get professional instruction on ice axe use (I never have), including self-arrest practice, it IS possible to go out and practice and gain the skills on your own. There may not be enough consolidated snow to find a practice slope just above Trail Camp in October, but if there is, it would be a good place to get some beginning practice.

Thanks, guys!

Good (and specific) advice. I'm glad to hear that a 30 degree bag might do the trick--I sleep warm and that's sort of what I wanted to hear, although I'm also open to dissenting opinions from you cold-sleepers. I'll probably take along a fleece liner or something just in case and plan on wearing some clothes to bed. Also, I'll bring a full length closed cell pad and 3/4 length self-inflating pad for insulation from the ground. Still debating on mountaineering tent vs bivy, but leaning toward the tent. Sleeping under the stars at 12,000 feet on a clear (hopefully) October night sounds like a pretty enticing argument to bivy, but the possibility of 40-50 mph winds will probably sway me towards the tent. Extra weight, but between three not too bad...

I think we will take crampons and an ice ax based on the following considerations:

1.) Hell, they're not THAT heavy...
2.) If conditions are bad enough that we would actually need them (as opposed to crampons just making the going a little easier), we'll turn around instead of getting in over our heads (since the way up is the "easy" part)...
3.) If conditions ARE bad enough, it might give us a chance to get a little practice in for the next time...
4.) If we carry them and don't use them at all, at least an ice ax on the back of your pack looks cool...

Are there any nearby places with a low-moderate slope and good runout that can be accessed by semi-short car ride and minimal hiking that are better than the trail camp area for ice ax and/or crampon practice? If the weather and reports from hikers sideline us, we might turn the trip into an instructional opportunity instead of an expedition of Lone Pine's main strip.

Any other general suggestions that haven't already been covered for an October trip?

By the way, this message board is a fantastic way to share experiences and pass on information, many thanks to Doug and all the regulars that do a great job of making the mountain safer for us silly, uninformed novices. I really think that the relatively low number of Whitney accidents can be at least partially attributed to the advice given here.

Don't pack those crampons and ice axe yet. This early it is hard to say you "will need them" or "should have them."

I wouldn't make the assumption there will be a bunch of snow this October. There may or may not. You won't know that until it gets closer. Some years there is not much snow at all. Other years there is more. Heavy winter snows might not come until later.

If there is a bunch of snow, then you are going up under winter conditions. And that is a whole other story.

This photo was taken at an elevation of 13000 feet on the saddle of nearby Mt. Russell on November 16, 1995.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/220811305/1220847816061435028xpqswf

Some ice in the series of photos
http://community.webshots.com/photo/220811305/1220847874061435028zSBOcz

but very little snow that year in November.

Follow the on site reports a few weeks before you go and keep track of the weather. Then you can base your gear on current conditions. Past trends or weather from other years only gets you so far.

InYoFace,

1. Most people die or get injured because they make bad decisions or compound a bad decision with another one. A firm fast rule is don't climb higher than you can descend safely or don't glissade down what you haven't climbed up. I have been using ice axe and crampons for five years and going up the MMWT in May or June gives me pause. I don't know why it doesn't give a neophyte going up in October pause.

2. What gear and clothing you take up the trail is predicated on current conditions and the forecast for the duration of your trip. You should have a bunch of extra gear and clothing in your car as you leave home for an October trip to Mt. Whitney...or any Sierra location where you plan to camp at 12,000' for night or two. If conditions call for a 50 pound pack you take a 50 pound pack...you don't skimp in winter like conditions because the margin of error is so slim.

I plan a trip to Mt. Whitney like any other trip in the Sierra, that is, for the worse conditions I expect to run into.

To IYF (and the newbie plans for mid-October)

"If we carry them and don't use them at all, at least an ice ax on the back of your pack looks cool..."

(from wbtravis) "I have been using ice axe and crampons for five years and going up the MMWT in May or June gives me pause. I don't know why it doesn't give a neophyte going up in October pause"

The last thing that should merit any consideration is whether one "looks cool" outfitted in the clothing and gear they choose for a Whitney hike. I full well understand that the window of relatively fair weather and clear conditions is quite narrow, mid-July to mid-August (and even then can at times be forboding), but like wbtravis, I too question the widsom of a group, admittedly without winter-condition experience, planning a hike (with 50+lb packs, no less), in mid-October. As you are a self-described sea level resident, the effort alone of getting yourselves and your gear to 12,000 feet with 50 lbs on your back will be Herculean. Couple that with the potential for unfavorable weather conditions, and it could be a recipe for disappointment at best, disaster at worst. Seriously think about what it is you are planning to attempt. Consider those things that will, without doubt, go completely opposite of what you plan or anticipate. Then act accordingly; and if that means not taking winter equipment you have no idea of how to use, and abandoning your hope of a summit and intelligently turning around to head back down if the weather turns sour, then do exactly that. As so many have said, the mountain will still be there for another attempt. And (from personal experience only) if you do shoot for another time, why not opt for the narrow, milder, more benign probability window in late summer. Even then it's a hard walk, but a lot less to be concerned about as well. I wish you nothing but the best experience possible - be safe, no matter what.
Brickie

Lots of good information on this post. My first experience on Whitney was 2 years ago in late October. We were lucky, and no new snow had fallen at that time, and the only dicey part of the trail was a section of the switchbacks (with the cables) that was coated in ice.

If these kind of conditions exist in October, a group of newbies who take time to acclimate and get in shape shouldn't have a problem. As others have noted, winter conditions are another matter. I'm not even talking about ice axe and crampons, rather winter camping skills and knowledge.

Once it snows in the Whitney Region, unless there is immediate melting of all snow shortly thereafter, this is not a place for someone without experience. Avalanche danger and route finding are two things that stick out in my head. Snow falls and all of the sudden there is no more trail to follow. Numerous chutes, gulleys, and slopes line where the main trail cuts its way up to Whitney, and can avalanche at any time.

This, of course, is a worse-case scenario. I'm not saying this to scare new people away from winter camping, but it's important to realize that simply not going for the summit isn't necessarily going to keep you from danger in winter conditions.

My recommendation would be if good weather is predicted and it hasn't snowed, absolutely go and have some fun. If it has snowed and winter conditions apply, I would wait until the following August or September, and in the meantime seek out some winter camping advice and practice.

Gusto

We are planning on preparing for the worst both in terms of equipment and planning and won't cut weight if it means we will be leaving behind proper gear. Reaching the summit isn't really the goal or even the point for us, we're just looking for a challenging overnighter and a little experience with the main trail. If the weather or general conditions (or anything else that could go wrong, i.e. fatigue, AMS, etc.) won't allow us to continue safely, we will certainly turn around--we're not about to do anything that is beyond our capabilities. First rule: Come home again.

If attempting the summit is within our comfort level and we make it to the top, it's a bonus. If all we do is bonk at Outpost Camp, that's fine, too--we'll have more experience for next time.

Anyway, thank you all for the candid advice and suggestions, to be prepared for the worst, we first need to define what the worst consists of. The discussions on this board are a good way for people new to mountaineering (or just new to Mt. Whitney) to gauge the skills necessary for this trail. It is ultimately up to individuals themselves to make the right choices. Some won't, but we hope to.

By the way, the ice ax "looking cool" thing was meant as a lame joke, I apologize if the comment implied otherwise--I don't want to give anyone the idea that fashion should ever influence a decision regarding equipment.

Its easy enough to throw the extra stuff in the truck and decide what you need at the trailhead. You might want to check out a pair of instep crampons. They work fine for hard or slippery snow or a little ice and can save a decent amount of weight. As for an ice axe, I don't see how it will be of much use before the heavy winter snowfalls, when the route up to trail crest changes to the gully. Better go with good poles. If there are very icy sections of trail you might want to bring a short rope for belays.

The basic issue here revolves around whether to consider taking an axe and crampons, particularly if one is not skilled in their use.

Three points I'd make.

First, these technical tools work well....so well, that they will allow you to get into places you could NEVER go without their help. The problem is, that you may then be in a very dangerous place, don't know what to do, and get trapped....or take a potentially fatal fall.

The worst scenario....you go up a tough slope, which then changed into a MUCH HARDER technical slope by the time you want to come down, and because of the lack of proficiency, you cannot come down. And on top of that, you are not prepared for an overnite unplanned bivy in freezing conditions. This was basically the situation of the fellow who died last year.

Second, although I own a couple of pairs, I would not recommend instep crampons. While I think they can be helpful on fairly flat icy trails, they will not help you on a slope significantly. If you need crampons, you need crampons. Even the main trail is a climb, and there are areas where there is real danger, and one should use the gear needed for the conditions. I should also mention that there are quite a few different types of instep crampons, some almost like full crampons, some little more than toys.

Third, I consider that the use of crampons always requires the use of an axe. (sometimes you may use an axe without crampons, but not the reverse). Once again, the crampons will allow you to get onto slopes where a fall will be serious, and poles will not help you if you fall, then.

thank you for your input. I am inclined to agree with those of you who have stated that if you need crampons, you need an ice axe as well. We have decided as a group that at any point on the trail we do not feel safe, we will immediately turn around. That being said, if we are unexpectedly caught in a sudden storm and need crampons and an ice axe to improve our chances of safely returning to the trailhead, we should have them with us. I think that we have decided as a group to carry them, not so much so that we can continue on the trail if it becomes icy, but for any unforseen conditions that, if we had them, their use would add to our chances of a safe return down the trail.

We also like the idea of finding areas where we can safely practice using this equipment without even getting on the Whitney trail if the conditions are poor and have a great few days in the surrounding campsites/lakes.

We plan to arrive, as Ken suggested, the day before our scheduled hike on the trail, talk with fellow hikers, assess the current weather/condition of the trail, sleep at an elevation of at least 10,000ft, wake up and head up the trail after a light breakfast and enjoy our day. If we can stay on the mt overnight, that would be great. If the trail is open to the top, that would be even greater. None of us wants to have a harrowing experience attempting to summit Mt. Whitney, so we will do whatever we can to try and avoid that. I hope someday that I can be very skilled in the use of an ice axe and self-arrest, but I know realistically that is not going to happen between now and October.

We will hope for good weather! We might be hanging out at the Portal Store for 3 days!