Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board sucking in air at altitude

Is there a correct way to suck in air at altitude? Some pressure breathing tips I've come across on the Internet say to:

-- "Take full breaths even when you feel like panting; it makes the oxygen exchange more efficient and visibly lowers your heart rate."

-- Inhaling normally followed by hard, whooshing exhaling to forcefully rid the lungs of excess carbon dioxide.

Pretend to hold a candle out in front of you and blow out forcibly. Inhlale normally, then repeat. Repeat if necessary. Works for me.

"Take full breaths even when you feel like panting"

Yep, I agree... Just suck it up. Big breaths (but not to the point of getting hyperventilated and dizzy)is good for keeping all those parts of the lungs open for business. Those zillions of little air sacs are called alveoli.

"followed by hard, whooshing exhaling"

this type of expiratory breathing is called pressure breathing. Chronic lung patients do something like it called purse-lipped breathing.

hang on, I'll explain. The idea is that you breathe out so fast, and/or by constricting, that you thereby slightly raise lung pressures during the expiration phase. This causes increased pressure in the lungs, and improves oxygenation.(****remember that the problem at altitude is NOT lack of oygen, it is still 21%, the problem is lack of pressure).

Ventilators in hospitals have this capability. They can increase both the inspiration pressure, and the expiration pressure. But this is for critically ill patients where every little thing helps. The theoretical and practical advantage for you on Whitney-like heights is small. I have never found it necessary even up to 23,000, but others do recommend it for its small benefit, perceived or real. By truly high altitudes, your main job is to breath just to stay alive. On Whitney, at a moderate pace, you will be doing something like 1 breath per 2 steps at 14,000 on the easy stretch of the last mile. Sorta like... take a breath every time you put your right foot down, or something like that. The exhaling will just come automatically, forcing out at the right speed so you are ready for the next inhale.

Just stay ahead of the curve and breath heavy enough BEFORE you need to. Someday, when you get to 20,000ft you will be able to look at the next step, the next ledge, the next rock, and know that it will take 8 breaths or 20 to get over it. So no need to go faster, just stand there and breath. Nice thing about Whitney is that you won't need to stand still , you can keep moving.

Two weeks ago, I tried a technique that a cardio kickboxer told me about that seemed to work. All of my breathing was done through my nose. We hiked the Vivian Creek trail to San Gorgonio and I must admit it was difficult at first, but once the rhythm was there, I felt fine the whole way to the summit. It gave me a feeling of calmness. I am going to give it a try next week on Mount Whitney. One drawback is that it cuts down conversation time:)

re: Cutting down on Conversation

I can't help it - I guess it might depend on which side of the conversation one were on!!!!! (G)

But more seriously, I like the "mountain rest step" where you take a slight pause in your step before proceeding. I have found that if I try moving too fast I get into an irregular pant making it difficult to proceed and at times I've had to force myself to slow my pace to my breathing.

I like the rest step too. When you are going slow and/or steep, this momentary locking of the trailing knee is said to save about 10% of effort. I think the effect is noticeable.

I don't care for pressure breathing—I have to concentrate on it, so pay less attention to the climb. Hence less enjoyment of what I am out there for in the first place. When really high, like on 8000 m peaks, it may sometimes have its place.

Hultgren (h_lankford's bible) mentions several studies of it at altitude: Its effectiveness is modest and not without hazard; voluntary hyperventilation is suggested as being better and safer. You can rupture pulmonary blebs, resulting in pneumothorax. It may facilitate cerebral edema by venous congestion. It may facilitate shunting of blood within the heart in some people, thereby actually reducing arterial saturation. Two cases of mediastinal emphysema on Mt. Rainier have been reported. (Quoting from Hultgren, here.*)

If I reach the point of needing that extra 02 efficiency, I throttle my hiking speed back to where I am just breathing deeply and rapidly. If too deep and rapid to be comfortable, I throttle back further and use the rest step.

I've been using that rest step on this mountain for so many years, you'd think I'd be well rested by now! The reason I like it, over just trying to hike more slowly, is that I control my hiking speed without thinking much about it. Furthermore, if it becomes really strenuous, it is easy to increase the duration of each rest. If I just try to hike slowly without using the rest step, my mind wanders and pretty soon I am going too fast again.

Hiking slowly and using the rest step accomplish the same objective. It's just that—for me—the rest step is relatively automatic and methodical, and I enjoy the climb more.

-----

*Especially when popular perception and common sense seem to suggest one thing but research suggests otherwise, providing the supporting documentation helps. Here, the research cited by Hultgren (on page 312) included papers in Chest, Off Belay, High Altitude Medicine, Lancet, Heart and Lung, and Annals of Internal Medicine. Researchers were Shoene, Roach, Hackett, Rennie, Hultgren, Sakai, Yanagidaira, Fujiwara, Oelz, Vosk, Cujec, Polasek, Mayers, Johnson. Details can be obtained from the Hultgren book.

Those who want to argue the points are welcome to do so, and I hope they will provide their sources. I am more than happy to change my view if the evidence is there.

For more see Bible:
High Altitude Medicine
Herb Hultgren
(Stanford Univ)

Most people won't pay $77 to $100 to purchase a used copy (Amazon). I probably wouldn't have bought one, except that I knew him quite well. Hultgren was a giant in the field of mountain medicine and physiology. He climbed all over the world, and was chairman of the American Alpine Club's medical committee. He discovered the cause of that previously mysterious illness we now call HAPE, and gave it its name.

Harvey, I've been trying to figure out what you meant by "...****remember that the problem at altitude is NOT lack of oygen, it is still 21%, the problem is lack of pressure)."

It seems that the problem at high altitude is the lack of oxygen, i.e. the reduced partial pressure of oxygen, even though oxygen is still 21% of the thinner air.

Bob

Bob -- you are right. The amount of oxygen available goes down in proportion to the barometric pressure precisely because the percentage of oxygen is constant.

I said " ****remember that the problem at altitude is NOT lack of oxygen, it is still 21%, the problem is lack of pressure"

pressure is required to force the 21% oxygen into your system. For example, at 45,000 ft, if you were breathing 100% oxygen you will still die unless you had it pressurized. Make sense?

I should have said it like alan as "oxygen available" rather than "oxygen". I think we all are trying to say the same thing. sorry if this confuses the issue.

h_lankford -- In responding to Bob's post, I did not go back and carefully read yours. I should have, because you didn't say anything wrong. I think that you've made some great posts over the past few days and I enjoy learning from people who know more than I do about these subjects. Keep it up!

I used this breathing techniques and have taught others. After about a few weeks, it becomes second nature.
PURSED LIP BREATHING
Pursed Lip Breathing ("PLB") is a very popular and excellent "Rescue" technique for acute dyspnea. This dyspnea is usually related to COPD, Emphysema and Asthma. However, in some cases of severe COPD and Emphysema, and chronic severe Asthma, it may enhance breathing comfort if used in a chronic long term manner. Generally however, breathing control techniques are easier and more desirable for chronic, long term breathing comfort.

First, you need to understand some theory as to why this technique works. Refresh your memory on the concept of Dynamic Bronchial Compression, and the collapsing of your airways on expiration, as your lungs are getting smaller as you breathe out. And recall that this is a particularly serious problem in people with Emphysema, as the elastic supporting lung structure helping to keep the airways open is deficient. Pursed Lip Breathing simply imposes a slight obstruction to air flow at the mouth, which generates a back pressure throughout the airways, and therefore a stenting effect to help prop open the airways and assist expiration and lung emptying. It must be emphasized, the amount of pressure supplied by you by pursing your lips together must be minimal, or gentle. Specifically this mouth back pressure must be in the range of only 5 to 10 cm water pressure, and that isn't very much. If you compress your lips too much and exceed this minimal pressure you will actually provide an airway obstructive situation and impair air flow and lung emptying.

As generally taught, breathe in through your nose (to warm and humidify the air, and remove particles and bacteria), and then on expiration pucker your lips together as though you are whistling, to provide the desired mouth back pressure, and breathe out through your pursed lips in a "prolonged" manner. The length of prolongation is often stated to be two or three times (and occasionally four times) longer than inspiration. To practice correct lip pursing people are instructed to place a candle about 4 to 6 inches away, and to make the flame gently bend or flicker, but never so hard as to blow out the flame. http://www.sierrabiotech.com/bt_copd_plb.htm

the 5-10 pressure generated by this method is same as PEEP setting on a respirator (when needed.) PEEP is Positive End Expiratory Pressure. So all of us talking about these breathing techniques are not just full of hot air!

Alan, I'm glad to participate. It is a suurogate for being there (still one month into mountain withdrawal Sierras to East Coast). Harvey

It appears that it's just a matter of terminology. I think the usual meaning of "lack of oxygen" is that the partial pressure of oxygen is low, which is not necessarily the same as the percentage of oxygen in the air is low. So when we speak of the situation at high altitude, there is a lack of oxygen, not a lack of the percentage of oxygen in the air.

On the summit, I didn't directly feel the lower oxygen and pressure levels, just the effects in terms of some decrease in coordination. But when I got back home at sea level, I noticed that my Nalgene water bottle (not the rock-hard but the semi-hard type) was crushed. I think that the pressure change went from about 8psi on the summit to 14.7psi at sea level.

Great info, but nothing was mentioned about how to inhale and exhale. I try to extend my stomach, allowing the diaphragm to fall while inhaling and then allowing the stomach to return, forcing the diaphragm up while exhaling (diaphram breathing). This technique seems to fill the lungs to a deeper level. This as opposed to lifting the shoulders and extending the chest to inhale and then letting everything sag to exhale. I make no claims as an expert so would someone in the know comment between the two techniques?

Thanks,
DaveG

When you inhale, your diaphragm (your belly) should expand and decrease when you exhale. This is the ways animals breath and is the basic breathing technique taught in Asian religions. This is the way you should breath all the time. Humans are the only species that breath improperly with their diaphragms decreasing when they are inhaling.

The pursed lip technique discussed above, which is used by high altitude mountaineers, assumes that you are diaphragm breathing. BTW, it's OK to pant when you stop to catch your breath, but if you can't control your breath on the trail it usually means you're going too fast. The general rule is to maintain a pace that allows you to walk for an hour between rest stops. However, on steep inclines or at high altitudes, you may need to rest sooner. I've heard that on 8,000 meter mountains, the climbers rest after every step (step, breath, breath, step). Tenzing Norgay's son wrote that when he summitted Mt. Everest to match his father feat the last 100 feet took an hour.

I lead numerous hikes for the Sierra Club and the most difficult challenge for inexperienced hikers is to maintain a comfortable pace. They usually want to keep up with the strong hikers and not lag behind, forgetting that their energy has to last six to eight hours.

Mt. Whitney is a serious challenge for even experienced hikers. New comers should be conservative and try not to get overly fatigued. Men, especially young men, get competitive and tend to burn out. Women are usually much smarter on the trail.

In addition to proper breathing, there is the "rest step" which is explained below.

rest step
In mountaineering and hiking, the rest step is a human walking gait used in ascending steep slopes. Its essential characteristic is a pause of motion with the rear leg vertical and fully extended, while the front leg is relaxed except as needed to adjust the balancing of the climber's body and burden on the rear leg.

The goal includes "locking" the knee, in order to rest the weight on the skeleton (and relieve the leg muscles of exertion as much as possible).

Climbers may often execute the rest step spontaneously, if waiting either for the next step of a climber who is a step or two ahead, or for the energy to continue. Nevertheless, conscious practice at delaying the next step (requiring inhibition of a walking reflex) is widely deemed worthwhile. That skill enables ascent at the maximum steady pace, on slopes where the rate of consumption of either energy or oxygen is the factor limiting the rate of advance, whether some climbers or all in the party are operating at that limit.

The rest step is especially emphasized in steep ascents on firm snow, often including the additional feature of keeping the moving foot close to the snow surface and scraping it against the snow as it comes to rest, especially to preserve and reinforce the improved footing available in the footprint left by the immediately previous climber.
http://www.answers.com/rest+step?gwp=11&ver=1.1.0.364&method=3