Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Whitney Summit Survival 12/9/06 - 12/12/06

Wow Doug! That was a truly gripping report. I'm glad you made it down to tell the tale. To be stuck on the summit in a storm while suffering from polmonary edema ... yikes. And then to have to bivy on the crest for 2 more nights. That really is a test of survival.

I attempted a dayhike yesterday (12/15). Winds were gale force and I was knocked off my feet several times. I can hardly imagine being in those kinds of conditions for long and yet you had to endure likely worse for days. There was a very substantial amount of snow on the switchbacks and the fact that you managed to get all the way back down to Trail Camp and beyond in your weakened state was surely quite a feat.

You definitely deserve some much needed rest. And some warm sun down in Mexico probably wouldn't hurt either.

-Rick

Hi Doug,

Was this Agassiz Peak, AZ, 12356 ft?
When did it happen?
What is an elevation of your home town?

No, Mt. Agassiz, in the Sierra.

One other thought about the lung business: Perhaps it was not HAPE.

One thing that struck me was that he was in a small airtight enclosure. At first, I wondered if he might be simply lacking for air. Then I realized that he used his stove in that situation.

He improved markedly with very little elevation loss. Not likely with HAPE, but getting fresh air could be the reason.

No way to know, now, a pulse ox would show normal (for altitude) with CO poisoning, but be very abnormal with HAPE.

Also very possible, is that there were interactive things going on...CO poisoning setting off HAPE, for example.

That reminds me. I was concerned about ventilation when Richard and I were in the hut. There's a stove pipe clearly visible on the outside of the hut, but no obvious corresponding vent inside. There is a cutout or two in the tin ceiling but these were closed up.

-Rick

I just learned that the rescuers found one of the climbers dead on Mt. Hood, a mountain I've hiked on many times. People should be on notice that Mt. Hood is a killer mountain and has claimed experienced climbers among its victims.

Not only does the temperature decrease 3.6F per 1000 feet of elevation gain, but winds also increase, sometimes dramatically as many of us have experienced in the Sierras. Storms can appear out of nowhere, and can create serious problems for the unprepared.

I've been hiking for a half century, and I have a healthy respect and fear of snow. I don't understand why someone would hike alone when a storm is predicted. More than half my hikes in the Sierras have been solo, but never in the winter.

A comment about the heater I left up there...it is tent safe, so wouldn't bring about the condition that Ken talks about. A stove would be another story. If I'm buring a stove for warmth, I usually leave something open for additional ventilation, preferably on the opposite side, so I don't feel any direct draft.

I doubt that the hut on the summit is sealed well enough to cause a lack of oxygen situation.

Edit: that's a shame WCD...the Sierra in winter (in my opinion) are more beautiful than summer.

Ken, I wondered about the CO poisoning as a contributing factor, too.

but the stove was used short term and the wind was howling, thus presumably ventilating the hut.

I've spent many hours at that altitude and much higher in a lot of places incl the Himalayas in a dining tent with a kerosene lamp roaring and my annoying habit (to the other guys) of lifting up the edge of the tent wall to make sure that we got some fresh air. I was really worried.

My guess is that he had "garden variety " HAPE. Harvey

Hi all: I'm back from Mexico. My knee is still sore, but otherwise I am generally recovered from the nightmare. Thanks everyone for the kind words! I did hope that my story would serve as an awakening for the uninitiated, and as a reminder for the Old Hands of how vulnerable we can be.

Here is some more general information and answers to your specific questions:

Regarding acclimatization, my recent Mt. Agassiz climb (13,893) was indeed about 3 weeks prior to this Whitney hike. Trips during the following 2 weeks consisted of hikes up Mt. Baden Powell (9,399) & Mt. Baldy (10,064) in the San Gabriels (both with overnights on the summit), and what turned out to be only a day hike to just above Mirror Lake on the Whitney Main Trail (maybe 11,000). My home elevation is 2,500ft. in Palmdale, CA. I have noticed in the past, as Richard P. has mentioned, that I gain substantial acclimatization from a close string of trips to altitude, especially if I sleep overnight at moderate altitude (above 8,000ft.). In this case, my "string" was neither close enough together time-wise, or high enough in altitude (single points above 11,000ft. would have been better). Each person reacts uniquely at different times, but clearly in this case, I was insufficiently acclimatized. To answer your question, Bob K., I did not display other AMS symptoms such as headache or nausea before or after the onset of Pulmonary Edema signs/symptoms (seems weird to me too). As Ken mentioned, CO poisoning may very well have been a trigger for my HAPE. Even though I didn't feel the typical headache or "pressure at the temples" characteristic of CO exposure while I was running my stove for about 15 minutes on Saturday evening, it is definitely possible. There seemed to be a breeze in the shelter from the rising wind outside, but the CO exposure may have been enough to prompt the marked rise in pulmonary artery pressure that is a precursor to HAPE. That's when the trouble starts with possibly variable or failed constriction of the arterioles that should protect the capillaries from high arterial pressure. Unchecked high arterial pressure in the capillaries then forces fluid into the alveoli (my paramedical career ended in 1979 when I left the military - the physiology can be much better explained by the fine M.D.'s that post on this board). Saturday midnight into the wee hours of Sunday morning, I developed the characteristic productive cough (white & frothy) of HAPE. I consider this productive cough with gurgling/heavy rales in addition to the signs in common with CO poisoning (extremely elevated heart and respiratory rates) to be the conclusive factor. I consider my case of HAPE rather mild compared with the most severe case I have seen: 17,200ft. on Denali - it took a continuous 3 liter flow of O2 and descent all the way to the glacier at 7,500ft. for the guy to begin to recover. I was marginal in this Whitney case, but in trouble. It was probably the fact that I was forced to be immobile at 14,000 feet for two days because of my injured knee that helped me the most - not the slight reduction in elevation.

Regarding cell phone usage on the summit, I had no signal inside the shelter or just outside the door. I was told by one of my rescuers that sometimes it helps to bring the phone to the extreme eastern end of the summit plateau (on the summit boulders). I guess it depends on the model of phone and brand of service.

Regarding mountain rescue & responsibility: It is, of course, difficult for me to be objective in this case. I am very thankful that I was able to descend to the relatively safe area at Trail Camp before the rescue teams had to climb higher on the mountain in the face of the returning storm and increasing objective dangers. I have lingering feelings of bitterness concerning some of the rescue operations I was involved with in Alaska during the late 70's and a sense of pride concerning most of the others. In this Whitney case, I hope I have not initiated feelings of bitterness within the ranks of my rescuers. I sensed that I did not - we were all glad to be just heading down the mountain in one piece.

On a broader note, our tax dollars, in one form or another, paid for the two ground climbing teams (4 climbers), their logistical support teams, and my helicopter ride to Lone Pine from 10,300ft. It is an interesting debate regarding the responsibility for mountaineering rescue costs. I am inclined to agree, in principle, that some sort of "Mountaineering Insurance", similar to the international insurance available through the American Alpine Club may be the way to go. Such a program would allow people like me, who have occasionally pressed the limits in our mountain careers (mine is going on 33 years now with 1 rescue), to help relieve the taxpayers from the financial burden of mountain rescue. Such a program could spur climbing limitations in popular climbing areas/ranges and a bureaucracy like the one that failed on Denali a decade ago (and also would demand the formulation of guidelines to determine which rescues were necessary or, on the other hand, precipitated by gross climber negligence, etc.). It is an interesting debate.

Again, thanks all for your support and prayers.

Doug F.

Doug,

Thanks for sharing your interesting trip report. So far what has been assumed to be pulmonary edema has been attributed to a noncardiogenic etiology. At your age (history of 33 years of mountaineering) it seems an athlete must be wary of a cardiac etiology also. When your heart rate was approximately 140, perhaps it was not in sinus rhythm, but rather a less stable rhythm. Any possibility of a touch of ischemic heart failure due to coronary artery disease? ( The healthy heart will just laugh at exertion at 14,500 ft. This is not necessarily so for the heart which has developed some "plumbing" problems over the years.) The heart is such high-priced real estate, just to cover all bases, you might touch base with your physician. Maybe a stress test or echo is appropriate follow up.

Hope you have many more successful Whitney summits (even in the winter). Glad my tax dollars were used to give you a ride down the last few miles, but it sounds as if you would have done fine down to the Portal on your own.

Hope you have a great 2007. Jim

Jim,

I was thinking along the same lines also since I did not experience any of the other symptoms of AMS on the mountain. I already have a consultation set for this Friday with my doctor for further cardiac evaluation and test scheduling. It is difficult to accept the affects of age, but I will if need be - hope I'm not grounded.....

Thanks,
Doug F.

Regarding the cost of search and rescue operations: This was a garden-variety SAR, involving the three elements of (1) agency personnel, (2) field team, and (3) outside support.

For simplicity, I will commit gender offense below. But I am well aware that victims and SAR people can be female as well as male.

(1) Full-time agency personnel—sheriffs, rangers, dispatchers, OES personnel in Sacramento, etc.—are paid whether or not they are performing in a SAR mode. Your tax dollars at work.

(2) SAR team members are unpaid volunteers. For operations that occur during work hours, they use vacation time, compensatory time (where they will make up the hours later), or leave without pay—depending on their employer. They pay for their own gear and expenses. Team expenses, e.g., for radios and ropes, are paid for by donations from individuals and organizations such as the United Way. If a member is injured, worker's compensation and his own medical insurance kick in. If killed, the cost escalates; for example, consider the loss of future earning power to the member's widow and children. But the only cost to anyone on the outside is if they choose to make a (tax-deductible) donation to the team.

(3) Helicopters are expensive to fly and maintain, and more expensive if they crash. Sometimes they are "free"; for example, the military chalks up SAR support to its training budget.

But sometimes the county has to pay for the helicopter. For example, INF has a contract helo in Independence during fire season, and it will be used if it is available; the county gets charged. I don’t know how it is with the CHP helicopters.

How much of the operation’s direct cost does the victim have to pay? Usually nothing. Certainly nothing in categories (1) or (2), or if a military helicopter is used. If a non-military helicopter, there may be a charge to Inyo; in that case it is then passed on to the victim's county of residence. The charge used to be only for the actual flying time on the operation, so if it took half an hour to fly from the Lone Pine airport to Outpost Camp and back, the charge might be $400 (for a $800/hour helicopter). I don't know what they do now.

If the problem was caused by the victim's egregious behavior, his county may try to collect the costs from him, perhaps not limited to helicopter use. At one time I understood that if the victim refused to pay, he couldn't be forced to. That may be different now; I don't know.

There is one other cost to the county that sometimes occurs. If the sheriff is pleased with the SAR team's performance and it is convenient, he may buy them a restaurant dinner after the operation. But the members have to pay for their own beer and tip.

DougF, you certainly had HAPE, according to the definition. You and Richard illuminated the ventilation of the hut, which I've not stayed in overnite to notice.

The Lake Louise consensus on HAPE:
In the setting of a recent gain in altitude, the presence of the following:
Symptoms: at least two of:
- dyspnea at rest
- cough
- weakness or decreased exercise performance
- chest tightness or congestion
Signs: at least two of:
- crackles or wheezing in at least one lung field
- central cyanosis
- tachypnea
- tachycardia

Also, I believe the CHP helicopter is free, unless there are absurd reasons for the rescue.

Hi Doug, Welcome back from Mexico. After I posted my message I found an article that said that 50% of people with HAPE don't have AMS so your case isn't unusual in that respect. http://www.everestnews.com/stories2005/illness01112005.htm

Re the costs of SAR efforts, this is from MSNBC regarding the unfortunate current situation up on Mt. Hood:

"Oregon law does not require victims to pay for rescue efforts unless they were negligent and failed to take basic steps to keep themselves safe ... and in those cases, costs are limited to $500 per person. Other costs are absorbed by the state and local agencies involved."

It is unclear as to whether California has any law similar to this.

Doug,
thanks for continuing to share your story and thoughts with all of us. Some of the running off on the HAPE and cost topics are because of our interest in those subjects. This has taken on a life in this thread on its own, thanks to your story stimulating us. No offense intended to you.

Ken, I agree with you and Louise.
1. HAPE until proven otherwise.
2. Symptoms of altitude at altitude are altitude illness until proven otherwise.
3. Don't think of zebras when you hear hoofbeats.
4. More common for a common disease to present in an uncommon fashion (fast-strike HAPE) than an uncommon disease presenting in its usual fashion (occult coronary disease and CHF on the top of Whitney)
etc
etc

You can skip over into bad HAPE without much or any of the usual premonitory AMS symptoms (as Bob K has already said). And 15 min runs with the stove in a reasonable large and ventilated space does not see enough time to me to tip it off. We might see if a study on minimal time and concentration exposure to cause CO poisoning is available, but similar study on CO-induced HAPE?

Harvey

Hi What was that line send five copies to my mother I made it on the cover of Rolling Stone, Well Doug it made the Front page of the world famous Inyo Register today and was a very positive report of your trip. Thanks Doug

This is a great reminder that things can go bad in a hurry. The story is also a sharp contrast to a similar story I read on this site a few years ago about a guy who found himself tired and lost on the main trail in deteriorating weather. He was not injured and he had plenty of food and water. He had a cell phone and GPS. He was just tired and unsure where he was and what to do. He called 911 and gave them his co ordinance but with deteriorating weather a rescue was not possible. He wrote how angry he was that nobody was coming to get him. The SAR team told him that as soon as weather conditions permitted they would fly up and get him but it may be a day or two. The guy had the audacity to complain. He had food, water and shelter. He sounded like a little kid who didn't get his way.

Sounds like he's from the OC. hehe

Doug, congratulations on your survival. You were about to be rescued by yourself (a true mountaineer), extra help is always welcome, however.

Once in Oregon, the recovery team told me that they get sandwiches and (nonalcoholic) drinks from Sheriff while at work. They are dedicated volunteers, otherwise.

I think this is the report: http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002046;p=1&r=npwm being referred to.

Comments above seem a little harsh to me.