Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Water and Giardia around Mt. Whitney

It is probably worth mentioning that individuals' susceptibility to water-born infection varies greatly.

If you have been drinking unfiltered water for years and years, you've probably been exposed to various bugs whether you realized it or not. And you've probably developed greater resistance to getting sick.

On the other hand, people who've never had anything but filtered water are going to be at a higher risk of getting sick if they suddenly start drinking stream water straight.

Re Bob R's comment, "Of course, it is possible that someone crapped nearby or in the water recently." I recall that last summer (or the summer before) someone did just that on a secluded part of the shore of the little lake by Trail Camp. I can see how that would happen. In the middle of the night, someone picked a spot near their campsite. They may have been just inconsiderate or they might have been a bit scared at going away too far in the dark or they just didn't know any better, etc.

Kurt,

Can you give details of the treatment you have had to undergo and how effective it has beem including prescriptions and/or over the counter treatments?

And then there are some early symptoms, as Tina reported:

Maybe that was an indication that the giardia has already set in.

Tina,

I have been struggleing with nausea and loss of appetite at high altitudes ever since I venture into these elevations. But usually I feel completely fine once I am back at the trailead. It was very anusual that I was not even able to eat breakfast the following mornig. However, I doubt very much that this is related to my giardiasis. As Bob R. pointed out it takes 7 to 14 days before symtoms show. (According to a CDC fact sheet it takes 1 to 2 weeks, average 7 days. It was probably not an engineer who figured that one out.) Since Friday I have the proper medication and I am starting to feel considerably better. The most severe symptom was loss of appetite. Looking at food or even thinking of food was turning my stomac around. It is a very efficient way to loose weight, though. BTW, I arrived in Switzerland OK this morning, but it obviously wasn't the most pleasant flight I ever had.

Bob R.

I entirely agree, there is no positive prove that I even got it in the Palisades. Only, if (what I sincerely don't hope) Kurt W. got the same problem I had a pretty strong argument. Up at Gayley camp all 3 of us got the water from the tiny tarn, as it was the only water source anywhere near. If I remember correctly down at Third Lake Tina only took water from the exit of the lake a few feet down the creek. Kurt W. and I also filled our canteens directly from the lake straight below our camp, which was about 100 to 150 feet away. Maybe that is not considered "drinking smart". I read your postings and paper on the subject and to me the evidence is compelling: The risk of getting giardiasis from High Sierra water is very minimal.

Memory Lapse,

All I got is an antibiotic called "Metronidazole" that I have to take for 7 days, 3 tablets of 250mg daily. I started the 3rd day now. The nausea disapeared and as of today the appetite seems to return, but it is a bit early to say.

Steve C,

I kind of doubt that the previous incident is related to Giardia. I fully recoverd within a day and was completely free of symptoms for an entire week. During this time I completed a 100 mile bike ride makeing pretty good time without having any issues. I don't know if anybody could confirm if the symptoms can disapear for a whole week and then turn up again.

Kurt

I still have not read a response to this. We are talking specifically about Kurt S's infestation, and we are conjecturing that he got it on this trip. So the question applies to Tina and Kurt W: Did they wash hands thoroughly with soap or use antiseptic gel, etc.? Kurt S, do you know?

[If Kurt S caught it from Tina or Kurt W, that means that one or both are asymptomatic carriers. That immunity to giardiasis can be gained is well-established.]

A lot of outdoors people have learned that proper hand sanitation is the important thing in preventing the spread of Giardia and other germs. Yet I see it being done only rarely.

To expand upon my quotation above: Did both Tina and Kurt W use the proper procedures? If not, further discussion about the water in that tarn or elsewhere is pointless.

This is fascinating theory, but it may be something of a red herring. Consider it from an alternative angle:

If poor hand sanitation is the primary means of contracting Giardia in the wild, we would expect to hear at least occasional reports of people who used water purification methods (pumps, iodine, etc) AND got Giardia.

That, at least to my knowledge, is not the case.

Andy

I think there's some good points being made. Romanandrey's comments about some people who may have more immunity than others and his question about whether there are any Giardia cases when filters are used are good points.

However, I think I'm coming around to Bob R's point of view, somewhat, regarding the overall safety of the water. Even the situation I mentioned about someone pooping next to the Trail Camp lake and not scooping may not be as bad as it seems at first thought. I would still want to filter the Trail Camp lake, at least for peace of mind, but it seems that the flowing creeks below would be OK because anything from the poop would be extremely diluted. Places I would be more concerned with are car campgrounds where people take their pet dogs and down stream from them.

Regarding the personal hygiene issue and getting "something" on their hands while pooping, what the heck are they doing with their hands? (I have to pause here to stop laughing.)

Anyhow, the beat goes on.

We only hear occasional reports of anyone getting a Giardia infection. Whether they used water purification, or for that matter, whether they went on a backpacking trip.

I know of one Sierra Club sponsored trip where the entire group had serious intestinal problems -- some were affected early in the week-long trip, others near the end. And they treated their water. They blamed it on food prepared the first night, but you cannot be absolutely sure unless tests are made. And Bob's questions about hygiene should have been asked in that situation, too.

I have heard a few reports of this. It also happened once to me several years ago. I had a case of diagnosed giardiasis despite thorough treatment of all of our drinking water.

On a four day trip last week I developed a persistent case of diarrhea (not from giardiasis) even though we packed in all of our water from a municipal source. I can't say where the problem came from, but it wasn't likely the water. And our hygiene was poor.

Bob R.

I am obviously not in a position to conclusively answer your question about proper hand sanitation. I have however no reason to believe that the members of the group didn't apply the required hygene procedures. Obviously there are a number of possibilities how I may have aquired the parasite and I can very well live with the fact that the source can not necessarily be traced to a single source. Since the Giardia question has been dicussed here to some extent, I thought I'd mention my first hand experience. Kurt

Sorry, i dont intend to divert, but i am trying to spread the word. This is a small suggestion to get rid of Giardia. Giardia will not be able to survive if the condition in the gut is not favorable for it. From the continuous research on Giardia, I will suggest to eat High-fibre food, No Glucose, No milk and No fat. There are simple reasons why this food habit will get rid of Giardia in three days. Eating high-fibre food will wipe Giardia from your gut, and induce unfavorable gut layer making it difficult for Giardia to attach and hence multiply. Giardia essentially needs simple sugar to grow, so no Glucose & milk in your food will be compromising for Giardia. Dietary fat is also the main stimulator for the release of bile acids into the intestinal lumen, which giardia trophozoites depend on for survival in the small bowel. Moreover, if you have friendly bacteria among your internal floura in your gut, it will compete with the Giardia for surface to attach. So please try High-fibre food, No Glucose, No milk and No fat.

Manish, we're a tough crowd, here.

Interesting concept. You are basically advocating a protein-only diet (no sugars, and no fat, and there is nothing else).

Problem is, while it is an interesting idea, you have provided no references to substantiate your claim. Surely, somewhere in the world, this has been scientifically tried and demonstrated. I've not been able to find any, other than just opinion pieces unsupported by any data.

A protein only diet is not particularly fun, and neither that, nor fiber, neccessarily provides the kind of fuel that people engaging in athletic endeavors need.

I'd be happy to hear more, though.

Maybe I'm nitpicking here, but what is the proper technique? In particular, if you use hand sanitizer, how do you avoid contaminating the outside of the bottle? Do you smear the stuff on the bottle as well as your hands? Also, I assume that this is done after completely packing up the wag bag?

A person could get really carried away with "sterile technique"... but it may be worth it.

I'm just beating a dead horse here, but it's been 2 weeks or so and i haven't gotten the explosive gas or any other outbursts. I took water straight from iceberg lake and the stream that crosses the switchbacks. No filtering, no chemicals, and no bugs. The switchback water has a slight hint of fine grit.

-lance

Since Lance brought it up... I hiked a section of the JMT from Tuolumne Meadows and Devils Postpile three weeks ago, and three of our group of five dipped and drank heartily from practically every stream and lake we came to.

I am happy to report that none of us has had any intestinal problems since the trip.

I must say, it is quite a liberating experience to be able to drink so freely. I think that drinking so much water helped ward off that oh so familiar lack of appetite I get so often.

... Thank you Bob R and Robert Derlet!

Since we're taking testimonials and singing Bob's praises...

When I moved back to CA 12 years ago after 20+ years in NY, I started taking Sierra trips again and started filtering my water. I heard horror stories about Giardia and decided that things had just changed a lot since I used to drink only unfiltered water back in the early 1970s.

I was very happy to come across Bob R's paper several years back. It made a lot of sense, and I eventually met many people knew Bob and thought that he was extremely knowledgeable. For the last couple of years, I have been drinking unfiltered water for the most part.

When my son Eric and I did the JMT last summer, I took the filter along just in case. We used it exactly once, mainly so we could feel like we had not carried it for nothing. It was basically a small dead weight in my pack. (I know... I should have put it in Eric's.) Oh, yeah, neither of has had any intestinal trouble.

Naturally, when I saw that Bob commented favorably on the Indian Wells Brewing Company, I started making stops there on my way south from the Owens Valley. I have at least two things for which to thank Bob!

Yet, so strange his choice of brew given the company.

Two funny water-related anecdotes:

Coming off the East Buttress a couple weeks ago I dipped my bottle into the creek below UBSL next to two guys who were pumping water. As I passed, one says to the other: "Hey, he's drinking right out of the creek." The other replied, "Well, he's going to die." (I agree. We're all going to die.)

On Tuesday at Trail Camp a ranger (who will remain nameless to protect the innocent) came over to the TC pond inlet and filled up his (or her) bladder. I yelled "Hey! You didn't filter that!" He (or she) looked a little embarrassed and said,
"Oh, I'm going to in a few minutes."
"No you're not," I yelled back.
We both had a good laugh.

Well, you can read about my friend Rick here. It's good having a brewmaster as a climbing companion. If you look closely at that picture, you'll see that the empty bottle is IWVBC Oktoberfest--an advance bottling sample Rick brought along for me to taste. He also brought along ten cases of Mojave Red for Doug's store. Since the MR (no pun intended) is doing so well for Doug, I didn't want to deplete the supply. Hence the Alaskan Amber as a chaser, which is pretty good too.

By the way, I keep two kegs on hand always--for friends and strangers who stop by. One is always MR, and the other either DPA, ESL, OBA, or LB (you can look 'em up).

Fine mountains and good beer: Can life get better than that? Oh yes, add in a very tolerant and understanding wife.