Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Finding Lost Group Members

A young man I work with told me he was at Sea World with his family and lost one of his small children for only a few seconds. He was so alarmed by this experience he started thinking of a way to deal with this dilemma in these crowded theme parks. He came up with an idea and applied for and received a patent, spending a substantial amount of money to do so.

He determined that a GPS based system would not work in this environment and I am not sure about the nature of the technology of his device, buy he says it could be installed in a small wrist band and would require what he called a kiosk within 1000 meters of the device. The kiosk could be small and unobtrusive, a couple feet high.

This device could also include messaging capability and probably several other features we did not discuss. This would be useful with older children to set up meeting places and times, for example, at a ski resort.

He has not yet begun to put the manufacturing part of this together and is looking for funding to get it started.

The reason I mention this, is that I have read many accounts of people getting lost or taking more time than expected on the Whitney Trail and have read about Doug and others getting involved in S & R.

I wanted to see what those who frequent this board thought about installing such a system along the trail. The WPS could sell or rent the device worn by the people and they could even be dispensed from a vending machine at the store. I know that this idea may be controversial and contrary to the spirit of the hiking and camping venture, but it might help eliminate the need for Doug to charge up the trail late in the day to find some wayward hiker and he could make a few bucks from it.

I think my young friend's strongest market is the theme parks and ski resorts I mentioned as well as other crowded venues, but I thought it might be helpful in this application. I have no interest in this enterprise, I just thought of the Whitney trail when we were discussing this, because my groups always seem to get separated on the trail, due to differing hiking speeds.

The kiosks would probably have to be located about 2000 meters apart or perhaps a little less to ensure overlap.

What are your thoughts?

(Doug, I am the guy who worked with your buddy, Peter T., from down under.)

Seems like Personal Locator Beacons (PLB) would handle this if people want the added safety. Not as convenient as a wristwatch device with Kiosks but the tradeoff is the building of the Kiosks.

See the info on Personal Locator Beacons (PLB) on the bottom half of this webpage http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emerbcns.html

My personal feeling is to not change the wilderness and the experience any more than it already has been. To some extent, the heavily travelled and documented parts of the Whitney Zone are already a little bit like a theme park and I wouldn't like to see it move any more in that direction.

not workable.

The USFS will absolutely not allow the building of these kiosks in the wilderness, it is illegal.

This would require a LOT of money to install, with the number of kiosks required.
The number of people who would avail themselves of this are tiny...I'd guestimate a few a day. The pool is something like 10,000 a season. At Disneyland you have many times that A DAY. It will never be economical.

Hi Some thoughts about this ideal , I always go back to the old days and work forward , most systems of transmission are line of sight and we were limited to dirt based systems, we built towers to transmit longer distance, but now we can go up to a non earth based device and transmit down still in the basic stage for full coverage but the next generation will provide full coverage , then all that will be needed is a signal transmitted from the ground and location will be 100% some simple freq. modulation will be needed so each person can be located ,1984 alive and well, now cell phones would be the most likely device, they are very close to the ability now, would need to transmit when off(low power) and a data base to track signal. we could also use this in times of conflict so we don't shoot down our own forces, but then again no where to run nowhere to hide.
Thanks Doug

Leave them to the theme parks and ski resorts. The wilderness is about less, not more.

Anyway, the "kiosks" probably require electricity. Would they need power lines too?

The idea that "he could make a few bucks from it" by developing the wilderness makes me very uneasy.

Seems to me that we already have enough technology solutions available that it would not make sense to build an additional fixed system. We already have GPS equipped cell phones (admittedly uneven coverage on the mountain), GPS equipped 2-way radios, Personal Locater Beacons (satellite and air detection) and avalanche detectors. Anyone wanting a safety net when climbing could use any of those.

I also think personal locater beacons would suffice here and not necessitate the building of kiosks along this trail or any other.

I think the GPS Pro Dog accomplishes the same thing (essentially like a lojack for pets). Perhaps you could use the same system for such individuals replacing a collar with a bracelet.

If they won't allow toilets to handle pollution from human waste, I'd doubt they'd allow electronic kiosks.

Installation of a kiosk to track personal locators would be contrary to the wilderness experience. Individuals who find an actual need for this should not be on wilderness trails.

Theme parks and shopping malls all have protocols for locating lost children. They even have procedures if a child is abucted. Parents have the primary responsibility for the security of their children. Whether it's a wristwatch device or a chip in the back of the neck, it doesn't replace a parent's vigilance.

Sigh. There's a real simple solution to this problem that doesn't involved technology. It's called TALKING. I.e. talking to your group before hand about the trail you're hiking, showing (or better yet providing them with) a map, discussing timelines, what to do if separated, where to re-hook-up, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

Some Sierra Club hike leaders issue two way radios to the slower hikers. These radios are also useful when multiple cars are being used on trips to the mountains. When they work, cell phones are great of course, but they're generally worthless in the Sierras. Then there are satellite phones, whose rental prices are falling.

For children I strongly recommend issuing whistles that are required to be kept around their neck.

For urban areas, there is cell phone technology, using GPS equipped phones, that allows you locate any member that is part of your group.

I invite anyone considering kiosks or any other "improvements" to read Edward Abbey's Desert Solitaire.
get a cheap copy at
http://www.amazon.com/Desert-Solitaire-Edward-Abbey/dp/0345326490

He was a ranger at Arches, before paved roads. Basically said make it harder for people to enter and use the Wilderness, not easier. After all, it is supposed to be Wilderness. Harvey

Follow this link to a company already using GPS technology. It allows you to track someone on Google Maps....

Sorry! Looks like someone beat ya to the punch. I still think your idea is great for theme parks and the like!!!!

GPS Tracking Device

Hi I called the GPS company and ask several questions, how many SV's are needed ans 1, what data is transmitted? , this is preset by user, up to three options , will it work in tight canyons? maybe not. Do they have a demo unit to test? not at this time.


Would I buy one , a long time ago I told the story about my brother and I looking for boots the sales person said a crane operator bought this style every year, I bought them. On the way home my brother says "CRANE OPERATORS WALK AS MUCH AS SURVEYORS"?

I gave the person on the phone the web address and ask if they would do a post on product and the debate about the false use of calling for help. Thanks Doug

The Spot device that Glenn Jones pointed out looks pretty interesting. The system is satellite based. The transmitter costs only $149, which is a lot cheaper than the Personal Locator Beacons. The service is a lot more flexible.

I did not find the description all that clear, but it appears to offer "limited messaging" for $100 per year. It also allows "unlimited tracking" for $50 per year (additional, I presume). With the latter, one's location is sent out regularly and location can be logged on Google Earth.

In other words, it is more than an emergency beacon. If, say, some guy and his son were out on the JMT for a while, a concerned wife/mother back home could keep track of where they are. Not that I know of any such situation ever existing.

The system was just announced and it is not clear how well it works. But it looks like an interesting development.

Of course, it is another device to absorb excess funds! I am not in the market for it at the moment, but it does look like cool technology and I'm sure we'll be getting reports soon enough. And when/if my wife finds out about it, it may be mandated. On the other hand, my son has successfully resisted parental suggestions that he have a cell phone, which he sees as a leash. So maybe there is hope for staying relatively primitive.

Doug Ritter has a very detailed first look at the SPOT unit:

http://www.equipped.org/SPOT_ORSummer2007.htm

It seems like an interesting option at an attractive price with some unique features like sending specific messages instead of just help.

Personally, I agree with Doug Ritter to take a wait and see approach to the SPOT. If I had to get a beacon now, I'd still prefer a 406/GPS PLB since the service is free, works worldwide and also has additional 121.5 MHz Doppler locating. Just wish the price, unit size and unit weight would come down.