Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Sleeping Bag Advice - 3 Season

Hello all,

I've read some of the older posts related to this topic and got some good thoughts there. I have a more specific question:

I am in the market for a new three season bag and as of now, am considering either Western mountaineering Ultralite Super (20*F) or Marmot Helium EQ (15*F).

I am not wedded to either of them yet, though these looked good from my research etc. I am leaning torwards down due its lightweight, thermal qualities and packing ability but
am also concerned about it getting wet (hence the marmot helium EQ option)...

I like WM for its build quality, though I like the weather resistance of the marmot.

Does WM make a similar water resistent shell for its down bags like the helium EQ?

Any thoughts from folks or, from experience in using either? Or, another option? Feathered Friends bags also seem to be made pretty well.

I have a down bag and a synthetic bag. Synthetic just does not compress as well. What type of applications are you thinking of using it for? I am not sure you will find a bag that takes care of every situation. I have not really had any problems with my down bag throughout the seasons here in California. If I lived in B.C. or Wa. I may consider a really nice synthetic bag. That being said, I will include a decent sleeping bag review link. Sorry about the link to another site: http://www.spgear.org/object_list.php?parent_id=49&object_type=1

I'd would be partial to the WM bag because of the full length zipper.

I've owned a 15* F bag for the 3 season for half a dozen years and I would not want one that did not have vent options.

Those are good bags. However, consider if you really need a 3-season bag, or if you would be better off with something a little lighter. I have several bags, but typically use a 30-degree bag in the Sierra in summer. I do sleep in a single-wall shelter with one mesh wall, so there is some wind protection, and sleep in very light silk long johns to keep the bag clean. In summer I often use that bag (Mountain Hardwear Phantom 32) as a quilt, sometimes waking at 3 a.m. to finally get inside and zip it up. If it gets colder I put on another layer of clothing, but I've never had to in Sierra summers. This saves a little weight and also a little money.

Good question RAC. Something you may want to consider is the use of a fairly roomy, well made 20 deg. F. down bag for general use and augmented by some "tricks" for fringe season lower temps (down clothing/fleece on the inside and a light bivy sack on the outside). A bag such as the Feathered Friends "Swift" in the Epic fabric (water resistant) costs some bucks, but could be a good investment (I have several Feathered Friends down garments and find them very well made and durable). My choices:

Marmot Hydrogen (30 deg.): general use with "tricks" as necessary
The North Face Maxwells Demon Dryloft (-5 deg.): Sierra winter and similar use with "tricks" as necessary (to include insertion of the Hydrogen)

Climb Hard, Climb Safe
Hedgehog

You've listed my three favorites: Western mountaineering, Marmot and Feathered Friends (in no particular order). I think you may be trying to squeeze 2 different bags into one. If you want a bag that is warm enough for late fall/early winter (say a 15 degree bag), then it is likely to be too warm for the summer even on high mountains. You can get away with going the other direction and get a 25 degree bag and sleeping with a down parka and warm pants on colder days, but I don't find that to be very comfortable, ymmv.

All of the WM shells are water resistant. I've been to many stores where they give "the demonstration", which is to form a depression in the bag, then fill it with water, and leave it there while talking. Of course, it will run through the seams.

Here is an article that actually talks about this.

http://outside.away.com/outside/gear/gearguy/200201/20020121.html

However, for three season backpacking, particularly in the Sierra, I think that down is absolutely the way to go, and the issue of a bag getting soaked is very overblown with the modern materials. Try to immerse a down jacket sometime....they are TOUGH to get totally soaked.

I think either bag would be fine.

Yes, Sam, Andrew I may be trying to get one that does it all. It's been a long time since I was in the market for a bag and there are so many options now. Seems the self inflatable pads are more reliable also (and lighter) these days. Some nearly as light as the closed cell versions.

As Doug mentions, perhaps the 20* is a good option and as I usually have some extra clothes along anyway, if it is that cold, sleep with an axtra layer on.

Ken, I've been feeling the same about water. Do the Extremelite series also have similar water resistance as their other models? I see the Dryloft and Microfiber models both are. Interesting article by the way, thank you.

One concern/question I had with the WM Ultralite was its durability due to its lightweight fabric.

Can't say about that model, don't know. However, they are famous for their customer service. I'd give them a call.
I have their Alpenlite model, and have never experienced such a good bag. No visible wear in 3 years.

Hi all,

Not sure if this will help at this point, however it has worked for me. Take into consideration that I am only 5'9". what I have done is purchase both the M.H. fhantom 32*(large) and the Marmot sawtooth 15* (regular). If I sandwich the regular into the large or use seperately, it seems to cover all the temp ranges in the Sierras. I bought both bags on sale at REI for about $300. Combine this with a bivi or tent and you should have it covered.

The only real tip I might be able to offer is, once your torso has warmed up your bag; hand lift the chest area, then use your feet to lift the foot area as the chest area depresses, so the warm air transfers to your feet where little heat is produced.

good luck

Yes, good idea Ken- I was planning on giving them a call once I narrowed my thoughts down a bit. I think the Alpinlite you have is the wide version of the Ultralite; Out of curiosity, some claim the ultralite is too snug for their frame: I am 5.8" about 155lbs. What are your dimensions that you are comfortable with the Alpinlite?

That was my experience with the Ultralite, tight in the shoulders, chest. I'm 5.9, and 230.
The alpinlite is the most comfortable sleep I've ever had in a bag. It's like being encased in down comforters (which of course is what it is.)

I bought a bag in the early 70s that seemed to have a great design concept. The idea was that in a down bag, the down that you lie on is useless as an insulator since it is crushed by your body. So what they did was to remove the down from the underside of the bag and put it on top, and put a foam pad built into the bottom of the bag. They still make bags with this idea and also have models with a partially down filled air pad underneath. Also, the bag is more roomy than a mummy, somewhat between a mummy and a rectangular (untapered) bag. http://www.warmlite.com/start.htm

Another company that has the same feature of a built-in pad underneath is Big Agnes. http://www.bigagnes.com/

It's not clear to me why more companies haven't adopted this idea of a built-in pad instead of down underneath. Can anyone think of any negatives regarding this idea?

Edit: There were some negatives for me. Over the years, the foam pad in my bag got crushed and I took a Thermarest pad along too. Later I took out the crushed foam pad and replaced it with the Thermarest, although it didn't fit too well down by my feet. The Thermarest was too wide down by my feet and was curved up on the sides a bit down there in order to fit in the pad compartment. (Now that I think about it, I could probably fix that by cutting some slits on the sides of the pad compartment down by my feet and then seal it with duck tape. Hmmm.) But today's design by Warmlite and Big Agnes has a partially down filled air pad that wouldn't have these problems. However, one may need to bring a patch kit in case it springs a leak, although I have no idea what the chance is of springing a leak.

I also have the WM Alpinlite. It's a great sleeping bag and was plenty roomy for my 5'9" 175lb. frame. I have to have a full lenght zipper to vent. Last time I used the 20 degree bag I roasted like a turkey since it only got to 40 degrees that night at Robinson lake. After opening up the bag a bit to vent I was fine. I just ordered a WM Caribou MF 35 degree bag. You can't go wrong with Western Mountaineering.

Rafael...

My bias these days is toward synthetic, even though it doesn't compress as well as down. But then I spend most of my time in the humid midwest, not the dry Sierra.

I have a 35-degree North Face bag that is fine for 3 seasons here in the midwest and summer in the mountains. I also have a zero-degree bag for winter here.

A couple of tricks to staying warm down near the rating of the bag...the obvious one is a hat since you lose so much body heat through your head. The other trick is to wear fleece socks (Sahalie "Wild Thangs" for example) and fleece mittens. Keep the ends warm and the middle takes care of itself...

I also have a 1970s-vintage 15-degree Holubar kit down bag that I sewed myself...works great but I seldom take it out any more...too warm for summer in the mountains unless I'm sleeping out without a tent and darned near useless here in damp climates.

On the topic of weather-resistant bags, I have yet to find any material that is adequately water-resistant without also trapping way too much moisture. Personally, I'll opt for my 3# Walrus 1.5-person tent or my 4# MSR "Zoid 2" 2-person tent. Both are mosquito net with rain flys and then I can use a bag that breathes so I don't end up soaked inside a water-repellent shell if it's warm. (The old Stephenson Warmlite claims notwithstanding...their theory was that you made the INSIDE lining of the bag waterproof and kept moisture from getting into the down that way.)

Looks like I have a bit more homework to do...

Bob, that concept is an interesting idea and probably saves a bit of weight.

BobK: "It's not clear to me why more companies haven't adopted this idea of a built-in pad instead of down underneath. Can anyone think of any negatives regarding this idea?"

Flexibility. You're probably kind of stuck with a particular size (maybe even manufacturer?) of pad. I use different pads depending on season and where I'm camping. A large wide/long/thick one if car camping, skinnier and shorter for backpacking, sometimes two pads on snow, and a really minimal cut down skimpy thing on fast and light trips.

Side sleepers: With a built in pad you probably have to spin inside the bag. So what happens if you have the hood cinched down? Do you end up with your ear sticking out?

Also, I sometimes start the night warm with the bag zipped open and on top of me like a blanket, then progress to getting in the bag, zipping it up some, and finally ending up with it totally cinched down around my head. Not sure how I'd manage that with a built in pad.

YMMV.

I use a WM Summerlite, and I really like it. I haven't noticed any durability issues with it, and I highly recommend it. It is rated to 32 degrees, but I have used it in the high 20s with no problems (and without any long johns or other extra clothes on), and I am a cold sleeper lately.

At first glance, the concept of the built-in pad is good, but it would never work for me. I am a side sleeper, so, as has been pointed out, that just won't work if you have the hood drawn tight.

I am a side sleeper also, which makes me think of getting a bag with a couple inches more wiggle room in the shoulders.

The Ultralight is cut narrower than some bags. It's not just a matter of your frame size but also how you sleep and your sensitivity to being confined. Durablity of the fabric doesn't seem like a serious issue unless you're especially rough on your bags.

Best to go and try on a sleeping bag before you buy it.

Sorry to hear the bad WM customer service story...