Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Gear question

It is still not OK IMO to use someones experts and equipment to turn around and price shop. The whole idea of providing customer service is that it comes with a slight price tag. Otherwise we all are going to be bagging our own groceries. Heck we may have to go pick it out of the fields.

Please, is it possible, to cite the "quoted" source for the benfit of other readers?

My understanding, is that Joseph Stiglitz recognizes the need for a limited, role of government. Thank you.

Must find my contacts, to see what kind of pack I have before posting any other rash/exuberant misconstrued messages; that have nothing to do with the original post, and only serve to boost my ego, or constantly repeat, without adding anything new, or continue to rely on supposed expe...... Then again, how to tell Smith from Adam....

Peace to AlanK & mono

Peace to superTramp!

I was confused by the crossed-out material, but realized that I had provided no source for the Stiglitz quote, which was not cool of me.
Stiglitz interview here.

I hope that anyone on the board would agree with superTramp that government should have a limited role. I have a lot of friends and colleagues from the former USSR who can talk about one extreme and they aren't looking to go back to that!

I still prefer internal frame packs. I have bought all of mine from mom and pop brick and mortar stores, although mom and pop have sometimes had initials like "R.E.I."

This has been an interesting discussion regarding online vs brick-n-mortar. There is one fundamental flaw in the base argument.

It states that online retailers are undercutting the local stores in price. Flea Markets I believe were the words. However, many manufactures have pricing provisions that prevent low-ball pricing.

Example:

MSR Rector Stove:
REI $139.95
Backcountry.com $139.95
Mountangear.com $139.00
ems.com $139.95
TravelCountry.com $139.95
Altrec.com $139.95

Adventure 16 - $139.95
Mammoth Mountaineering - $139.95

Big Agnes - Insulated Air Core Mummy pad Long (20x78x2.5)
REI $74.95
Backcountry.com $74.95
Mountangear.com $74.95
ems.com $74.95
TravelCountry.com $74.95
Altrec.com $74.95

Adventure 16 - don't carry it
Mammoth Mountaineering - $74.95 (special order)

Manufacturer Direct? $74.95

Just like physical retail establishments, online retailers can have sales (which some will price match). But for the most part the pricing is pretty consistent - based on my experience doing price comparisons on numerous items over the past several years.

So the argument that online retailers are under-cutting prices is apparently not valid.

The more I think about that statement, the more I disagree with it because it doesn't treat customer service as the long term people-oriented concept that it is when it's at its best.

Customer service (even when applied to potential customers) means, in a business environment, caring for and treating customers right -- the way you yourself would want to be treated and taken care of. Your statement quoted above tells me that your customer service, your caring and treatment of me, comes with conditions and a price. While probably not unethical, it certainly isn't putting your best foot forward.

True and straightforward "shopping around" is a normal part of doing business. The best customer service to those shopping around is that which goes beyond the norm, including directing a potential customer to a competitor in some cases, if that's where the best deal is and the referring business knows it. A potential customer with an ounce of feeling will remember that good will gesture, and will understand that such a high level of "customer service" sets that company apart from its more average competitors. A postiive impression will have been made which may pay off in a sale down the road.

Brick and mortar store fronts, whether large corporations or "mom and pop" varieties, are all there for one reason -- to present you, the potential customer, with a product or service and within those products and services, a variety of choices. Those products and services usually need to be tried out first in whatever way reasonably helps the potential customer know that s/he is getting a good value.

If someone goes into a store and actually tells an in-store rep that they want their advice on a product they carry, but have no intention of buying it there, regardless of the advice given, then the store rep could decline to provide the advice. But more likely a smart store rep is going to realize that even if this person doesn't buy their product at that store, the expert advice given may very well make a good enough impression this first time that the person may come back another time and decide to shop there after all.

Businesses exist for customers, not the other way around. The statement from a previous post that businesses are not charities is very true, in the sense that they don't exist so customers can give them extra money to keep them going just because customers might have warm fuzzy feelings about the company. Companies, no matter the size, exist to provide products and services to customers and to do so with customer service that treats them like people, not consumers who are merely a means to an end for the business. That's getting the cart before the horse, and customer service (other than a paid service contract) that "comes with a price" is a good example of that kind of short term thinking.

Sorry for the length. Interesting thread.

CaT

PS - AlanK -- Love the last line of your most recent post!

Lots of good points on where to purchase stuff; I find A16 still has great customer service, many brick-and-mortar stores are about the same price as on-line stores.

Only negative I'd mention is REI. They've evolved over the last 20+ years, from a true climbers/hikers non-profit co-op with knowledgeable staff to its present day configuration of (almost) a retailer of sportswear with an outdoorsy motif undistinguishable from anyone else. If its not a co-op anymore, why not just drop the memberships and rebate ploy so the prices can be lowered, and operate like a for-profit company? I have no problem walking in there to try on stuff, then walking out and buying the product on-line.

Hear - hear! (or is it here - here)!

Hat's off to One & All

recent posters, not those evil corporate people at REI and others that blow with the wind...

So Cal Girl,
I'm about your size, a bit taller, and I'm short waisted. I found the lightweight packs rubbed too much--I tried them all--just not comfy. I'll take a bit heavier pack with more padding, especially for a fully-loaded pack for multi-day trips.

The best thing is to put on your boots, go get fitted by someone who knows what they're doing, try on packs loaded to 20-25lbs and walk around the store--up and down the stairs for a half hour or more. It's the only way to decide. I use a Gregory Diva 60--in a women's small it's about 5 lbs, but I love the padded shoulder straps and hip belt.

Also, make sure your bear cannister fits--I have to load my pack very carefully to get the cannister and water bladder inside.

Good luck on your search!

Not sure that I can agree with you, here. There is a price for outstanding customer service-ya gotta make a reasonable profit.

I have seen a series of small outfitters go out of business in the last few years: California Outfitters, in Fresno; Chester's in Fullerton; the backpacking store in Pasadena.
Why? they can't make a profit.

The hard reality is that if you can't pay the overhead, you can't stay in business, and customer service is overhead.

That's a good example of a evolutionary business process. The adaptations that work are kept. Those that don't fail to evolve. Your Starbuck's example reinforces this.

You used the word flea-market again. As my earlier post illustrated, online stores are offering items at the same price as retail outlets. Having worked with CPG/retailers over the past 12 years, I know that they have provisions that online stores cannot undercut the market in price. The manufacturer sets a minimum price at which the product can be sold (excluding short term sales). Many Online stores charge more for a product.

I'm not sure I get your point on SummitHut and Teton Mountaineering examples. You are agreeing with my view with those two examples. They are both evolving their business model to include online stores - Summithut already has, Teton is under construction with a basic catalog right now. With those two examples, you reinforce my point.

With all this - there are some products that are not suited for online sales. Custom fit products are the best examples. Shoes and boots can be a problem too, unless you are buying the exact same pair you already have.

The last thing I'll comment on is the myth of "expert customer service". The interactions I've had "high-end" stores demonstrate that "opinions" do not have to be based in any expertise - just look at Fox for a very clear example of how folks confuse this concept.

Ken,

I basically agree with your entire post, and yes, you gotta make a profit, but without sacrificing treating customers as people and not as objects of profit. But help me better understand, perhaps with some more specifics, how the above quote would be true. Unless an awful lot of a company's store reps spend a lot of their time just talking to prospective customers in lieu of selling product, which I doubt is the case, how would a company lose money to the point of being unprofitable and going out of business merely due to providing a high level of customer service? I understand that employees and inventory are both overhead on a balance sheet, and that in one sense, time is money; but companies generally go out of business due to unprofitability for reasons other than all their store reps spending too much time talking to prospective customers resulting in lost sales to others. Usually it's a more fundamental flaw in the product/service or business plan (or execution of the business plan).

If the companies you mentioned had good customer service, but still went out of business due to unprofitability, then you have to ask why. Without inside info on the companies you mentioned, that would be difficult to answer.

CaT

PS - Ken - Are you participating in the 9/27 MB hike?

Doc,

Here's the one word-rebuttal to blind faith in the free market: "Walmart"

That said, I do believe that, like democracy, free market economics is the worst option we've got--except for all the others.

SoCalGirl - if you haven't purchased your pack yet, I have a suggestion for you. I use both internal and external frame packs and have three internals of differing sizes. I bought one of them online and it's the one that really irritates me. Why? It has this upside down U frame in it and my head is pitched forward - just slightly - by the top of the frame and there isn't any way, other than removing the frame, to adjust this. After a few hours of not being able to put your head back a bit you want to scream and toss that thing off - which I've done. Some manufacturers have recognized this and have changed their designs accordingly. So I'm throwing my hat in the ring of getting properly fitted but also saying that what may not bother you for ten minutes might make you suicidal after 10 hours. For everyone out there in the retail / online trenches, I apologize for the hijack ;-D

WhitRat... how funny that you should mention that. The packs that Mom and I have borrowed have that upsidedown U thingie at top (I can reach over my head and grab ahold of it).. and we've been discussing how much of an irritant it will be. It makes you feel kind of hemmed in I think... we've already found a couple of adjustments we'll have to make to our everyday (how many times will you let your hairbun smack into it before screaming or pulling your hair out?)...

Thank you so much for that input!!!!

~Chris

You ask how, and I would say, that one would have to start a campaign to have people conduct that practice.....go in, use expert fitting services, do onsite comparison trails--then buy somewhere else. Oh, wait a minute! That is exactly what happened in this thread, advocating that practice, in a public way.

We are watching the blueprint of the process....

Don't yet know about the 9/27 hike.....