Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Do MORALs & ETHICs apply in the WILDerness???

From another subject/topic [Lost Backpack on backside...]

(see http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/49506/page/1#Post49506 )

" ...regarding a "lost" pack, and said, 'Oh, man! You're lucky...I was totally taking those crampons home with me!'
Then he dumped his bag and pulled out my sisters crampons,... Still, gotta hand it to him...I never would have known all that stuff was in his bag, so he WAS honest."

Q: Was he?

Of course morals and ethics apply in the wilderness. Do people sometimes disappoint? Of course!

At that moment, he was.

When he decided to take the stuff out of the pack, he wasn't.

If he hadn't been honest and told me that he had her stuff, and then gave it to me, then I never would have known he had it. So, at that moment, he was honest.

Why wouldn't they?

CaT

Since there was a note on the pack addressed to the sherriff's dept, it was clear the pack wasn't abandoned. To remove items from under these circumstances is clearly unethical.

To carry this a bit further - sometimes the line between "lost" items and "abandoned" items isn't clear.

It's not unusual in busy backcountry camping areas to find abandoned items, particularly when they're squirreled into some crevasse, behind a boulder, etc along with their trash, and it's obvious from the weathering that the items have been there for days or weeks.

Does anyone have an opinion on whether it's ethical to keep all/part of someone else's trash?

Whitney has been notorious for finding lost and abandoned booty. If it is not obviously "squirreled away" for later retrieval you have to assess the situation. When I do find lost or abandoned items I have brought those items down the hill. When I do this I make an effort to return to original owner - both by posting on the message boards and filing a "found items" report with the Ranger Station. After the ranger station renigged on their agreement to return found items to finder if not claimed; I no longer turn the items in directly - loster should be able to ID if said person really is the loster.

That being said I have to agree with Kevin - based on the story as we are hearing it - with said note - I do not think that pack was "fair game" to scavenge. At least rightful owner had good timing and it seems no more was lost.

I accidentally left my GPS on summit of Baldy - gone by the time an attempt was made at retrieval - clearly marked with my name and contact info on it. To date the person has not attempted to initiate contact and has therefore taken possession to keep that which they knew belonged to someone else.

In Nov '04 I lost an ice axe off the back of my pack on the Whitney main trail. It had no contact info so the "finder" would not have as many outs to find the original owner - I knew this and knew my odds were slim of it ever coming home - which it did not. I still filed a report with the ranger station and posted on the message boards.

Each person has to judge for themselves what is right and wrong and how far to go in attempting to find owner of items found while out in the mountain. I have been on both ends of both losing the equipment and finding the equipment. I can tell you that it is a lot rarer when your stuff finds its way home due to the good nature that most of us possess.

By the way, one thing didn't make it: the Gerber flip open pocket knife (retail value $40 at REI).

I guess someone decided that would make a nice Mt. Whitney souvenir. *sigh*

That sucks...but, again...better the gear than my sis.

You've got to be very careful making assumptions about whether equipment is abandoned or lost, or has just been stashed or placed somewhere for later retrieval. Someone may be depending on that equipment for their safety or survival. Granted, it's stupid to leave something behind that's that important to you, but in the throes of altitude effects, who's to say? Even taking it down and turning it in at the ranger's station or the portal store might deprive the owner of the item up there where he or she needs it.

I always err on the side of caution and assume the owner will be back looking for the item. Besides, I'm not so hard up for equipment that I need to take knick knacks I find on the trail.

Now if I were to come by again a few weeks or months later and it's still there, I think it would probably be safe to assume the owner isn't coming back for it.

My buddy and I came across a SPOT gps on the rocks next to the chute on our trip in June. Knowing that it was registered to someone he (my buddy) got a hold of the SPOT company the day after our return who then initiated a three-way call with the owner who was thrilled because he knew it was gone forever. The owner offered a finders reward which my buddy politely turned down but did agree to pay the shipping. I can still remember the conversation we had had we saw it laying on a rock and how bad the owner must have felt losing it and knew right thing to do would be to make every effort possible to get it back to it's rightful owner.

This didn't occur in the wilderness but I have to tell it anyway. I was at a restaurant on their patio one evening with some friends having drinks. There was a couple that I took notice of because they seemed so much in love - leaning in close and whispering to each other. After a while they got up and left, holding hands. A bit later I moved to their table as it was close to the fire and it was getting chilly out. As we moved there, I saw that the mans' wallet had fallen out of his pocket and was lying on the ground. I picked it up and looked inside for some ID. His driver license said he was Dr. so and so. I also couldn't help but notice that there was several hundred dollars in cash in there. I admit, I was tempted. After a moment's pause, the better part of me took over and I went to the pay phone and looked him up in the book. I called the number and a woman answered. Is this Mrs. so and so, I asked. She said yes. Great. I am at the restaurant and I saw you and your husband here this evening and he dropped his wallet. Silence. Hello, are you there? I wasn't at the restaurant with my husband this evening. My turn to be silent. Honesty is it's own reward. Sometimes it's less rewarding than others.

Why should I feel guilty or made to feel guilty for acting honestly, or addressing someone who is behaving less than such? Do people doing illegal, unethical, or immoral things on the trail get an automatic protection or right to do so just because they are in the wilds? Sure I turn my head for privacy issues, just as I would desire for myself. Things are private if you do it privately. Things done illegally or unethically remain so whether done in full view or in private.

One of the issues raised by this and the care for AMS and the young Japanese boy thread is where to draw a line between interfering and protecting ones own choices and others' choices. Care of property, people have a balance of individual and societal/cultural interests and obligations. Someone wishing to reward or challenge themselves physically and emotionally on the trail has the right to do so.

Endangering others in their pursuit is not a fair balance in my book and always warrants comment or action without my feeling guilty doing so.

My two cents worth...

I completely agree.. people who wish to challenge or reward themselves on the trail do have a right to do so. However... I think that when they're dragging someone else along (like a child) then it puts things in a different light. If the adult is heck-bent on making the summit and is putting the child in danger (or distress) by doing so... then I think something needs to be said to the parent. Mind you... I'm not saying that if you hear some kid whinning because his feet hurt or because she has to go to the bathroom that you need to step in... but if the child is obviously struggling under the weight of his down jacket on a 70 degree day.. or suffering from heat or AMS or whatever the case maybe... the parent themselves may not be away of the situation or in distress themselves and not aware of it. At least asking after them to make sure that they're aware there may be a situation. Or if you don't feel comfortable alert a Ranger that there may be a situation and let them decide how it needs handled.

On the topic of morals and ethics... one of my pet peeves in the outdoors are people who "bushwhack" in inappropriate situations (and I'm talking frontcountry here...). In our local mountains (as in many Cali areas) there are massive recovery efforts from the last few firestorms that have come through ('03 and '07). Many trails are marked for reforestation and there are signs that remind people to stay on the marked trails because going offtrail in these areas does more damage. Almost everytime I take my kids hiking we see people cutting the trails. I have actually seen someone stop to read one of these signs and then completely ignore it to cut a switchback. I almost always say something in situations like this... usually a loud (near full volume.. have to make sure everyone can hear me) reminder to my own children about how important it is to stay on the trail and leave no trace and such...

I would assume that something "squirreled away" means that the real owner tried to conceal it from prying eyes and fingers because he/she meant to return and retrieve it. Unless it is clearly trash, LEAVE IT ALONE. It's not anyone else's to do ANYTHING with.

2 quick comments...

First, my personal definition of character is doing the right thing even when no one is looking and there are no consequences to doing the wrong thing. That's the definition I teach to my daughters, and I try to live by it myself.

Second, almost every time I see anyone cutting a switchback or doing something else damaging or illegal, I speak up loudly and admonish them for it. I find that if said with sufficient authority, it usually has the desired effect. I do, however, make an exception when the person (or group) looks capable of and willing to leave me in a bloody pulp by the side of the trail.

Ain't that the truth!!!!!!