Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Skeeter Season -- 2008

With the exception of a full-on counter-attack of DEET (which has its drawbacks), is there anything that's effective up there so far this season? Virtually all of the reports that I've seen say that this year's mosquito situation has been as bad, if not worse, than any in recent memory. For those who've entered that battle zone, what's worked? What hasn't? Does the aerial assault diminish somewhat after reaching a certain altitude? How bad is it at the Portal campsites? Better or worse at Outpost or Trail Camp?

TeamBruin is restocking its arsenal, and heads up in a week. Thanks for your input.

Be sure to use a head-net. That way, you don't need any repellent on your face and neck.

One thing I found on my recent trip about DEET: I took several pump spray bottles of 100% DEET, and found that it is an effective paint remover. It took some of the labels off the mode-selection wheel on my Cannon Powershot camera. It even removes the text off the label on the bottle itself.

I was carrying the DEET in a side pocked in my pants, and later used the same pocket for the camera. I am not sure if the small leakage in my pocket caused the paint removal or whether handling my camera after applying the DEET caused the problem.

Anyway, people should be careful.

Steve:

I've had the same paint-removing experience with DEET. Amazing stuff. Along with its distinctive smell and being very oily, it apparently "melted" a zip-lock bag (albeit a thin one) in which the small bottle was stored, too. These were some of the "drawbacks" I was referring to. The spray bottle of it does help to keep it off your hands and trekking pole grips.

I haven't had good luck with the head-nets. Either too hot, or too difficult to see through in low-light situations -- but, despite this, I'll bring one along, though.

Anyone else have success with other products?

BruinDave

Buzz-Off clothing is awesome. You can buy the spray they use on that clothing called Permethrin.It works very well.

If you use the search engine, you will find some good threads about the effectiveness of Deet and Permethrine (SP?) together. Deet is effective only on your skin and is useless (and occasionally frequently hole-burning harmful) on fabrics). Permetrine can be purchased at REI and A16 and when soaked into your clothes forms a nice repellant. One of the other great repellants is wind. Camp and rest away from standing water and close to ridges and other windy places. The little buggars can't flap their wings to get to you through the wind.

With respect to head nets, I really like one designed by simblissity that you can find at http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/ultralight_headnet.html. It has much better breathability and visibility than others that I have used.

BTW, here's one other "fun" trick with deet. One time after applying deet shortly before eating, I used a plastic fork. The fork melted into my hand--not a lot, mind you, but just enough so that I had to pry it from my skin. Kind of scary.

I just got back from Yosemite this past weekend and the skeeters were out in force. Sawyer permethrin clothes spray works well in addition to using a citronella adhesive spot or patch on the undersurface of the brim of my hat. I didn't get a single bite but occasionally still had to swat a few away.

Hey BruinDave- I was just up there last week and had great success with lemon eucalyptus oil insect repellent. Works great for at least 2-3 hours. I did not get bitten once. I was wearing a tank top a lot and would even held my arms out tempting them to land-they would never alight. Much better alternative than DEET IMHO. Here's a link:

http://www.repel.com/ProductCategories/Insectrepellents/LemonEucalyptus/

SOME people have good responses, but most people do not (just like some people don't have much natural attraction for the pests. Before you head up to a place where you are depending upon it working, either have an alternative, or have tried it out, yourself. I've talked to people for whom it worked as well as water, so I guess your mileage may vary!

I agree with Ken. I tried the lemon Eucalyptus stuff as well and it didn't work at all for me. Curiously, though, I tried, on a whim, spraying the area of my couch where our cats like to scratch and it works like magic. I need to reapply about every other month. Mosquitos could care less about that stuff, but it worked great for cats.

Brent

Brent - While I agree with you that DEET can damage some fabrics, it is also effective when sprayed on clothing. When they're so thick I can't outrun them, I spray it on my shirt, exposed skin, hat and especially around any clothing openings. I frequently wear loose-woven polypro shirts in summer, and mosquitos can drill thru them. If I spray with DEET, it has the same repellant effect as if it were applied on skin.

Both DEET and Permethrine are serious chemicals, and IMHO should be used sparingly.

Hi, KevinR.

I'm no scientist, and I'm not sure the scientists have figured out all that is involved with the way DEET works, but this extract is fairly typical of what you will find about how Deet works:

Biting insects use chemical, visual, and thermal cues to locate hosts. DEET is believed to work by blocking the chemical receptors for carbon dioxide and lactic acid, two of the substances released by our bodies that serve as attractants. Although DEET helps keep insects from locating people, there is probably more involved in DEET's effectiveness, since mosquitoes won't bite DEET-treated skin. However, skin only a few centimeters away from DEET is susceptible to bites.

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa042703a.htm

My understanding (admittedly limited) is that it works through a chemical reaction with your skin that doesn't happen if deet is applied to your clothing and doesn't soak through. With respect to applications to clothing, natural fabrics should be fine, but many synthetics simply won't hold up under deet. Many tent fabrics, for example, will be damaged by deet. (I also permanently dulled my watchface when I inadvertently got DEET on my watch.) Like you I have tried treating my clothing with deet. I have sprinkled some on my hat, for example. I haven't noticed a difference from when I do and do not sprinkle it on my hat. I have noticed a difference when I treat my hat and other clothes with permithrine.

My take? It probably won't hurt anything to place DEET on natural fabrics, but I remain unconvinced that it does any good. I further prefer not to use more DEET than I need to becuase it is a strong chemical that gets absorbed by the skin. My goal is to use the least amount possible to keep the mossies away.

Brent N

I frequently hear the above sentiments, but is it true?
In the case of DEET, we are talking about what is probably one of the most studied chemicals, because of it's widespread use around the world. When one looks, you find that the number of cases of serious adverse reaction are so few, that each one seems to merit publishing, and when you read the cases, they are laughably absurd (immersing a newborn so as to aspirate)

In the case of permethrin, I find the best way to look at it is to compare its other uses. Typically, for clothing, what is applied is a 1% or less spray. The common medical use is for body lice on children, where we use a 10% solution, apply it to the entire body, leave it for 8 hours, then wash off, then repeat the next day! This has been the common use for decades, and there have been virtually no reports, AT ALL, of reactions or toxicities. Of course, in animals, which have been the models for toxicity studies, commercially they use 40% permethrin widely on a routine basis.

One needs to be careful attributing danger to things, or we will consider everything in the world dangerous, and do nothing. The most common cause of children's poisoning deaths in the US for many years (may still be), has been multivitamins with iron.

Vitamin B complex.

Ken, the quote that you attribute to me was actually posted by Kevin R:

"Both DEET and Permethrine are serious chemicals, and IMHO should be used sparingly."

I agree with him, however, with respect to DEET, but for purely anecodotal (and therefore admittedly fallible) reasons. I have known people who overapplied DEET and got sick. They attributed their illness to DEET and may or may not be right about that. I have also watched DEET's reaction on various surfaces (blurred my watch face, caused my plastic fork to melt and stick to my fingers, burn holes in fabric and melt varioud forms of plastic.) I don't compltely trust scientific conventional wisdom because it changes so much. For me personally, I choose to use as little of the stuff as possible, but I do use it.

I throw my observations out for whatever they are worth, but I wouldn't attribute any scientific validity to it.

With respect to what I think was the real thesis of your post ("One needs to be careful attributing danger to things, or we will consider everything int he world dangerous, and do nothing."), I agree. In fact, most things in the world are dangerous (including multi-vitamins and not just for the iron content but also for the ubiquitous high amounts of Vitamin A). Where I think we run into trouble is stopping the analysis with the conclusion that something is dangerous. That kind of faulty logic stopped the use of DDT, has curbed open participation in haloween, stops the production of life-saving medicines, restrains good samaritans, and stifles a host of good activities and products from being enjoyed. Caution does not have to equal avoidance.

Brent

Sorry for the mis-attribution, I've changed the post. Thanks.

I generally agree with what you said, Brent.

Ken - I'm relaying my own experience with these chemicals. Your experience may be different. You don't get to say whether my experiences are true or not.

When I observe DEET dissolving fabrics, that in my opinion makes it a "serious" chemical. I don't care how many studies someone locates which suggests otherwise, nor what their credentials are. I'll continue to make conscious choices about how/when to use DEET. If I'm in an location where Lyme disease or West Nile virus are common, I use more of it. When I'm in the Sierra, where these are less common or rare, I'll use less. But, that's just me. If you regard DEET as innocuous, that's your choice.



If you are suggesting that my urging caution in the use of pesticides and insect repellents is somehow irresponsible, well ... so be it. I'm in good company.

We'll be camping at the Portal. One member of our group is a virtual mosquito magnet. Anyone have any luck with citronella, whether it be in lanterns or as candle wax in one of those metal buckets that you get at the hardware store?

Something tells me that the skeeters just laugh at this stuff, but I need to cover all of the bases. Thanks.

BruinDave

My wife is from Tampa Bay Florida and we have visted many times during peak skeeter season. " Skin so Soft " by Avon is the secret. Everbody down there uses it. Not only does it work, it smells good and is good for your skin. Try it, you will be amazed.

Sierra Skeeter just laugh at Skin-so-soft; I think it is part terryaki sauce. Deet is the only true effctive bug deterrent if I am trying to keep them off.

Kevin, I'm not discounting your experience, simply your conclusions, which were not stated as unsupported opinion, which you certainly have the right to express, but as fact, which they are not. Irresponsible? No. Debatable? Yes.

For example, DEET and permethrin are totally different chemicals. Permethrin has no effect on fabrics or plastics that I'm aware of. And yet, you lump the two of them together?

Getting overwhelmed with the bugs is certainly a reason that many people do not like to go into the outdoors, and I think that is unfortunate, but understandable. When there are reasonable alternatives that work, that have a overwhelming safety profile, I think that is worth saying.

Another unfortunate assertion (which I don't think you make), is the danger of drinking too much water to produce hyponatremia (water overload). This is a common situation in road races, but virtually unheard of, in mountaineering. However, the opposite effect, dehydration, is an overwhelmingly common problem, and anything that discourages people from drinking, and makes them fear taking a drink when they are thirsty would border on tragic.

That's why I think that it is good to have these discussions!