Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Winter Access Forum MR between 12/25/08 and 1/1/09

I'm looking to put together a trip to climb in the last week of the year. I'd prefer to have at least 2 other climbers with me for an early winter ascent. Anyone think they might be interested in this at this early date (9/16)? If you've done the mountain at this specific time, what were the conditions like?

I'm planning on 3 days and 2 nights. I figure that leaving a full day for the last 2000' should provide ample time for a relaxed climb, even if the snow isn't very deep.

When camping at Iceberg in Winter, what kind of shovel did you bring? I'm assuming that it will be absolutely necessary to dig out a site for my tent.

I may be up for a New Years climb. I have been on the MT the past 2 Thanksgivings.

How were the snow conditions in late November? I'm hoping for 3 to 5 feet of snow on the mountaineers route around 12,600'.

What gear do you have?

Careful what you wish for.

There is a window of time, when the mountain becomes nearly unclimbable. This is when there is a lot of UNCONSOLIDATED snow, that only allows you to posthole. Also be aware that the mountaineer's chute is also an avalanche chute, and one has to be very careful at times. A group got caught in an avi below Iceburg Lake a couple years back, buried to 10 ft, lucky to get out alive.

That all having been said, best to be checking back for conditions in that time frame, to see whats going on.

best of luck with the trip!

If we have received some good storms by then I'd advise allowing 5 days 4 nights to complete this climb during your proposed time frame. It is surprising how long it takes to make progress up the mountain during that time of year. Unless we see unusual conditions for that time of year I wouldn't count on 3 days and 2 nights being nearly enough time for a relaxed climb.



You'll need a shovel for digging a tent platform but you should also carry one for avalanche emergencies. If one of your party gets buried and you don't have a shovel your chances of digging them out in time are slim and none.

I prefer a metal bladed shovel. BCA makes a good one as do Black Diamond, Mammut, and Voile. Don't skimp on this piece of gear by bringing a small one.

Also be sure to bring avalanche tranceivers and probes plus the knowledge on how to use them.

I agree with Kurt, the BD shovels are lightweight, sturdy and quite useful.

I have been up in Late Dec and found that it was a pain in the rear. There still wasn't a lot of snow and the Alder bushes in the North Fork were a BIG hassle to navigate with a big winter pack. Personally I prefer winter travel in March since you can basically Travel right over the alder maze underneath. 5 days 4 nights sounds like an eternity. If you are a strong hiker/climber 2 nights 3 days is a piece of cake. I have broken trail to the top in 2 days and come down comfortably on the third. As far as weather is concerned, just be smart and pay attention to weather advisories. If a low pressure is coming in from the north then use common sense. Yes bring a shovel. You will most likely find it very useful in camp. Plan on using snow shoes. If not you will have a post holing nightmare. Have fun.

Well, I don't think this is going to happen. There weren't any serious responses, and I will not do this last minute. I agree on the 3 days/ 2 nights, 5/4 seems like over kill for tourists who are foolish enough to think they need a guide service. Its just over kill. So are the prices.
Thanks on the snow conditions. I think that the snow year is starting out dry enough that December will be too early to do it. March is probably a safer bet.

3/2 is for people who are strong and either think they are lucky or are willing the cancel at the last minute if conditions and weather aren't great.

5/4 is for people who seriously want to increase (but not assure) their chances of success with safety when making plans too far ahead to know what the conditions will be.

Maybe you haven't explained to everyone about how lucky you are.

Dale B. Dalrymple
http://dbdimages.com

OK, I'll run with this.
How will increasing the length of the trip increase success? I could see needing more time if a climber was in poor shape, or had never done anything like Whitney and was going to move very slowly, but is an extra 2 days really necessary for those who have? I'm actually talking about hiking and climbing time, not time budgeted for sitting in Lone Pine waiting for conditions to improve.

3/2 or 5/4 are times on the mountain, not in town. You can't tell from town what the conditions for travel are like high on the mountain. Time on the mountain allows for snow to set up, winds to die down, acclimatization or travel time to succeed in less than ideal conditions. It may amaze you to learn that some strong climbers don't sit in town waiting for what they perceive as ideal conditions; they may go on the mountain in the typically less well known winter conditions as long as it is safe to do so. Those who spend their time on the mountain are more likely to take advantage of good conditions than those who wait in town until they feel confident conditions are good.

Dale B. Dalrymple

If you are able to drive to the portal, and have a nice boot track or firm snow to walk on all the way to the summit, then 3 days/2 nights should be fine. In my experience traveling on snow in winter adds about 50% extra time over dry summer conditions under the best of circumstances. As conditions become less optimal, the increase can be a factor of 2, 4, 8 or more. Just because you spend five days on the mountain doesn't mean you'll summit, it just improves your chances.

I think one thing I never expressed but always assumed was that I would travel under ideal or near ideal conditions with regards to snow. I know that fresh unset snow is just about impossible to move in, especially with a heavy pack and when moving up steep slopes, so I just assumed that any trip would take place in a window between storms with sufficient time for snow to set up.

The main reason I had a problem with the idea of 5/4 instead of 3/2 was that the person who had suggested this has/had a link to a guide service that cators to people who normally do the MR in summer conditions. The service claims the MR is a 3/2, and they state they use rope on the final 400'. I took my time and made a long 2/1. I had a leisurely summit and exit day that started at 8am, yet was still out the same day by 5pm. I also never saw the need for rope. So, since the service really over budgets on time, and starts pre-dawn to summit, I took the 5/4 to be an equally rediculous amount of time. Plus, I felt the price was exorbitant for the MR. I thought the prices for Aconcagua and Orizaba were reasonable, but thats irrelevant here.

Depending on conditions, I would be happy just to get to the top of the notch, and be fine with turning around at 14,100 if the final 400 was not doable.

In some senses I would like just to be able to go and spend a night in what is otherwise a completely alien land. Though, one need not take the MR, the Meysan Lake area could just as easily suffice. I would still enjoy a summit, though.

Guide services also do the the MR in the summer as a day climb, so I wouldn't draw any conclusions from the fact that the one you looked at did it in three days. Advertised trips usually are planned for the average person in their clientele, with a desire to maximize the chances that everyone will make it.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the snow "setting up". The snowpack will consolidate later in the season as it transitions from a winter pack to spring corn, but that won't happen for a long time. In the mean time I think it is likely that you will encounter a variety of conditions, from wet glop (lower altitude, south facing), melt/freeze crusts (any slope with sun exposure), wind crust (anywhere), rain crust (yes, rain crust), sugar snow, powder, etc. Sierra storms are usually accompanied by significant wind events, which create dramatically different snow conditions as a function of terrain. It can also warm up well above seasonal averages, then cool down again, again creating significant differences in snow pack on a small scale.

I'd suggest budgeting 5 days, and be glad if it takes less. Two extra days of food and fuel would be about 5 lbs per person, and considering the amount of gear needed for a winter ascent, it shouldn't be enough to make or break your trip. If you make it up and back in two or three days, why not go climb something else?

The time frame that you are talking about almost guarantees that you will not encounter ideal snowpack. That comes in the spring, when the pack has consolidated, and the water content has really gone up.

I'd be quite surprised if you did not have to ski or snowshoe virtually the whole trip, outfitted for snow camping. Heavy load, heavy work. People frequently experience postholing WITH SNOWSHOES at this time of the year.

Other times, your assumptions might be right. But really not this time of the year.

As for the guide services, you get what you pay for. People going to Orizaba or elswhere offshore are generally going to be pretty experienced people. People who climb Whitney are often not. Or they desire a huge margin of safety, climbing WITH an expert, WITH an EMT, WITH someone who will devote themselves to teaching whatever they don't know and can compensate for deficiencies, WITH someone who can deal with pretty much anything that could possibly come up. People with huge family responsibilities often feel that this is the trade-off they have to make, by maximizing the probability that they will be coming back. It is NOT themselves that they are thinking about. Many folk don't think that way, and venture forth "to see what happens." Responsible family folks have other things to think about, and need other insurance than an insurance *policy.*

I understand why the MR trip would be a minimum of 2 people at $525/ person since it includes liability Insurance, pay to the guides, FS fees, food (possibly) and other expenses, but it still seems really high to me. If I was to do Orizaba, or an equivalent Peak I probably would use a guide service since its in an area I don't know, using a route I've never done, and in a land where I don't speak the language. I looked at the price and thought, "wow a very high amount of money to do what I did for free". Its really just different strokes for different folks, I think.
Do people really find the MR to be difficult? As we know, its not technical, and aside from the altitude and the length of the final pitches it seemed so "easy and straight forward". Now, I did it in August, so maybe with no snow its different than with snow in July, but I encountered far more difficult terrain in Colorado on Crestone Needle, yet I have never saw any services for that peak.
I guess its just as you say, if you have never done anything like it, the price is justifiable.

"Set snow" as I refer to it, is how I have always heard of the crust that forms on top of the snow referred to. We get it on the San Francisco Peaks near Flagstaff pretty much as soon as the snow comes down. Its just a layer of a few inches of dense melted and refrozen snow. Its not always, but is very typically dense enough to walk on with no snowshoe, though I alway keep them on for the areas that the "set snow" is thin.

If you don't have those conditions around Whitney until spring I'm really surprised. Also, if the willows are not covered until later in the season, I would want to wait to go until they are. Spring, rather than winter. At least you have more daylight.

Is the MR difficult? Well, if you factor in proper ocnditioning, experience w/ exposure, ability to judge skill levels for yourself and those around you, and a willingness to attempt something new then probably not. It is not a technical climb from the perspective of absolutely requiring rope and harness and the ability to use them (at least in summer), yet plenty of people still are belayed off the summit due to fear of the Final 400.

Because Whitney is what she is, the spectrum of climbers is much, much broader. When we day-hiked it last April, a large, guided party was rapping off the summit, while we, unroped, downclimbed the section. Was it scary? Hell yeah. So many others I'm sure see it as quite a challenge.

Snow in the final chute and Final 400 are a completely different story than summer conditions. I've actually only done it in spring, with snow, so that's as far as I can really comment. But I do know of 'experienced climbers' who had to be lowered because they froze up during downclimbing.

I wasn't trying to turn this into a discussion on guide services or the merits of them. I understand the use of them and would use them if doing any mountain or route which is outside of my experience, and I couldn't find a suitable route description on SP . I was simply trying to clarify why I felt 5/4 was longer than necessary. I agree with the idea of bringing extra food and not being tied to leaving before I want to, and 5/4 seems reasonable. I also see from looking at the names that the people making recommendations are not arrogant grad students who make assumptions based on me stating that I need to buy a new tent, but rather the owner of the guide company and the author of the MR SP write up. Based on this information I'm inclined to trust these people far more than if they were just some guy who wants his opinion heard.
I'm also not surprised to hear about "experienced climber" belaying off the final 400 in April. If snow conditions there are anything like they are here at that time of year, the snow is more like clingy Crisco than a nice pack suited to crampons.

Still, I hate getting up pre-dawn to climb a mountain...I've never had to do it, and hope I never will.

If you're serious, let me know what you think is missing from the SP page and I'll fix it.



I just didn't want to assume I knew what you meant. Sure, we get melt-freeze crusts in the Sierra, though they are usually limited to aspects that get significant sun, and are more commonly found at lower elevation in the dead of winter. Wind crusts are more common. Either can be strong enough to support body weight, sometimes without snowshoes, but I wouldn't count on it. I've found myself punching through the stuff more often than walking on top of it. And it's cold enough at higher elevation that areas that don't get much sun can sit there as powder for days or weeks.

When the willows get covered varies from year to year. You;ll just have to monitor TRs from here or elsewhere to get first-hand beta on coverage.