Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Whitney Toilet discussion

Hard to tell. At first guess, I'd go for coyote. Any bones, marmot teeth or hair visible? Deer or marmot hair is always a good clue for coyote. hard to tell from the photo. Not likely bear. I think marten seems less likely, but maybe in the ballpark.

g.

That was my first thought and I see no reason to think it's anything else.

I agree. I post on several hiker BB's, and this one is the only BB moderated in such a manner. It discourages debate.

I just edited my previous post very heavily and added a lot of information. It was more efficient than a new post.

God Bless Kent Ashcraft. I didn't know him, but there's a lot of grieving on this forum right now that needs to be respected. All climbers share a common bond.

There's a right thing to say but also a right time to say it.

While the above posts assessing the pros and cons of thread deletion, and comparing this BB to others, may perhaps be the right thing to say, yet I think it is the wrong time, given the still-fresh situation with Kent Ashcraft, and as mentioned, the grieving still going on here. Out of respect for Kent, and for whatever my opinion might be worth here, I'd like to suggest that we wait a few more days before jumping back into those kinds of critiques. I have also deleted my first post in this thread for this reason. Thanks.

CaT

CaT,
I don't understand your point. I've re-read through the posts and can't find anything that seems even remotely disrespectful of Kent. Are we supposed to not talk about anything for a few days as a show of respect for Kent? I never met him but I have all the respect in the world for him and his way of conducting his life. From what I've been able to glean from his posts and from what others say about him it seems undeniable that he was a fine man. I also empathize with the grief his family is going through right now but I don't think even his family would think it disrespectful that the members of this board are continuing with our lives. If I've missed your point completely, I apologize but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Best regards, Whitrat

I don't understand either. It has been several days, There's no amount of time that's going to make everything OK, but wait too long and the thread would have been gone and forgotten. There's been a great outpouring of support from forum members, and it doesn't seem to me that it's inappropriate at this point to have other discussions. The original thread disappeared after the accident, so it's not as if the forum's been completely idle since...I'm sure no one means any disrespect.

I don't know ... perhaps I'm being overly sensitive to it. I know that waiting any number of days won't change anything, but for whatever reason, it just struck me as not the best time to be critical of the way the MB, owned by Doug, might be run, since it seems likely that he is still more focused on Kent and will be going down to his funeral in the morning. I could be totally wrong, but I'm guessing the last thing he probably wants to hear about this week is criticism of how the MB is run, whether or not true. Again just my opinion. You're right, though, about posting things before they are forgotten. So I have mixed feelings about it. I did not mean to imply any disrespect for Kent by anything I said. If I did, I apologize.

CaT

I think everyone needs to just step back,take a few breaths, and realize that no one has meant any disrespect all the way around. As an observer, it certainly doesn't read that way to me. And as I mentioned earlier, there is a good chance that the thread was removed because it became very large. Re-constructing it could take time and energy that could be better spent elsewhere if everyone involved has already retrieved their own copy from Google cache.

If there are other new developments on the topic, I am more than sure everyone will be interested to read about them

Bee

Richard ~ yes blue bags are enforced and there are drop off locations at Muir Camp and at the bottom... Rick Lovett

Mmmmmmm Mojave Red (Said out loud in Homer Simpson voice)


Forget the toilets - pass the beer.

I followed up on previous discussions by calling the Facilities Manager at Crater Lake. They had the same bad toilets that used to be on Whitney and lots of problems with those too. They replaced them around 1993 in an emergency contract to avoid contaminating the lake. They put in Phoenix composting toilets which have been working fine ever since. Their concessionaire contractor changes every so often and it starts a new learning curve for maintenance staff. Other than that, and replacing worn out parts, he said they work fine. He spoke very highly of Glenn Nelson of Phoenix Composting Toilets as an expert and for support including training of maintenance staff and site visits. Crater Lake is not 12,000ft but its 100s of miles north and they get snow from October to June. My point is that the old toilet design didn't work anywhere and it should be no surprise it didn't work on Whitney. The new ones should work fine and they are affordable - about one year's permit fees per camp.

The Inyo Rangers did a valiant job with heroic efforts put into those old toilets. I think everyone agrees that was way above the call of duty and that's not an acceptable solution. However, new toilets in a well-insulated solar-heated "Alpine" enclosure building will work fine. The system is pre-engineered and prefabricated and installed by the company. Its a turn-key operation and they're federal GSA certified for easy contracting. There is plenty of solar energy to heat it up to 60-65 most every day of the peak season and that will keep it composting. Yes, there will be routine maintenance and a big haul out at the end of the season, but it should be an acceptable task, nothing like before.

I got involved in this topic because I knew this could be done technically. I hope I've made the case. Now the question is do people want this to be done and if so, how to get it done.

Why not have toilets? I've read some interesting thoughts on this board about that, but the only one that I can relate to is that they are not in the true spirit of the wilderness. I agree, but I don't think a trail with 160 people on it every day will ever be a true wilderness experience. People are here to climb the highest peak. It should be as wildernessy as possible, but I think compromise is necessary to protect the environment from this level of use.

There are 14,720 permit slots in June-Aug and they all fill up every year. That's a typical arena full of people spending one or two full days on the mountain each year. What percentage of people are not using a wag bag? The Environmental Assessment predicted 50% but improving over time. Apparently another study estimated 20%. Does anybody know? About 6,000 lbs of wag bag waste is collected each season. The real question is how many lbs are left behind? Where does it go?

This ecosystem consists of snowmelt percolating into highly fractured granite. Above treeline (~Outpost Camp) there is almost no organic soil to break down human waste. Its going to end up in the ground water, streams, and lakes. Guaranteed. The environmental assessment admits as much.

So are wag bags the best environmental solution? Can they be forced on people? This is where the debate gets personal. Just about everyone reading this board will use a wag bag. Many hate them, but I think we all care enough about the mountain to hit the target and pack it out. Most of us have used them elsewhere where there is no alternative. I make my own for snow camping, and I used them on Shasta (above the nice composting toilet at 8,000 ft). I haven't climbed Whitney since 2003. This debate is not about you or me, its about the hiker behind that tree.

Some have argued for better education. Great, but we have a lot of first time hikers each year and some percentage who just don't care. Some have argued for enforcement tactics. Do we want cameras on the trail, or do we want weigh stations to see who's had a bowel movement? Come on, we can't ticket our way out of this either.

The Inyo Forest Supervisor who made this decision is gone, and he took his environmental documents with him. Something is very fishy about the way he implemented this program. See my previous post on this thread for more details. More importantly, new management at Inyo and Region 5 means this is an opportunity to take a fresh look at this problem.

Whatever is decided - reduce quotas, keep experimenting with wag bags, or one toilet camp, or two toilet camps, or a combination - I think we all can agree that the health of the mountain and the hikers comes first. I think we can also agree that the Rangers should not be burdened with what was going on before. This problem requires work to solve, but it has to be reasonable. In a perfect world each hiker would take full responsibility. I wish I didn't have to lock my truck either, but this ain't no perfect world. Unfortunately, the mountain pays the price for failing to realize the true nature of human nature.

For my part, I plan to write a letter to Inyo and Region 5 asking to reconsider their Proposed Alternative 1: Replace the Toilets. No matter what, I think they should continue handing out wag bags on a voluntary basis and educating the public. At the very least it would decrease the load on the toilets, perhaps even cut it in half. Maybe there's enough interest to do an internet petition or something. I've already put WAY more into this than I ever thought I would. I'm looking for an exit strategy before I have to look for a new wife.

What's the general sense of how much TP is blowing around, how many wag bags are laying around and how much poop is there? I'm asking about the main trail during peak months. This is anecdotal information of course. What are people observing? Thanks.

At what point do we cover anal fixation?

This thread has 1,380 views in one week. That's one of the most active on this forum. People are wondering why you're censoring an honest discussion about the most pressing environmental issue on this mountain. Now you add insults.

Bagpeak, you kind of lost my interest when you started implying threats of legal actions. When you take on a "scorched earth" policy, you don't leave people much choice in trying to have civil discourse. That, plus we grieve for your alleged wife.

I imagine that many people are now wondering, if they participate in a discussion, if they are going to be facing a subpoena, thanks to your efforts, and whether they have insurance to cover their time off work, an attorney to represent them, if they happen to be named in the action.

Yep, a strategy sure to enthuse participation.

Where is there any threat of legal action in anything I've written?

sorry, i don't see that. i see humor - search his other posts for further examples.

as for me, i don't mind if a friend or neighbor comes to my place for a barbecue dinner and we sit around solving the world's problems, but that does not mean i'm obligated to continue the conversation when i don't want to continue the conversation - for whatever reason. sometimes it's just time to say good night.

Bagpeak, I hope you don't get discouraged from the reactions here and at least write your letter, explaining what you've researched; I'm sure there are folks involved who really would like to "do things right". Possibly in your previous posts, the explanation of the legal processes involved was interpreted by some as "let's get up a class action lawsuit", which it wasn't at all. Unfortunately, in our society, doing the simplest things can be complicated by all the legal processes involved, but that's the way it is.

People are different; some will hear of a problem and immediately try to find a means of fixing it. Others like to talk about the problems, and either leave the solutions to others, or just ignore it and go on about their lives. Often, non-fixers get annoyed at 'fixers', because they don't understand why you don't just want to talk about it for a bit and then go on to something else, say a beer and pizza. I know this firsthand, being a 'fixer' type, and have learned I have to try to discern when people are just thinking out loud, not really wanting a solution, or are really looking for a solution. For the former, it's best to just say "hmm, yeah, the Whitney trail stinks, people should get their act together, what's wrong with people" and go on to the next discussion.

Anyway, you know from the old discussion that there are other folks here who agree that bags will be a never-ending source of problems, and would like to see a more universally-acceptable solution that actually works well.

Ever sat down to have lunch on a trail, and sat in a pile of fresh human waste, barely buried? With little water to clean up, it's very unpleasant, and I'd venture a guess that anyone who does would look at trail sanitation with a new perspective (not to mention looking at where they sit very carefully). While that could still happen with composting toilets available, it's much less likely to be the choice of an inexperienced visitor than if the only solution offered is a plastic bag. They'll either try to scrape out a hole and skip the bag, or not want to carry it and just leave it, reasoning that if anyone really cared, they'd have put a toilet or two somewhere along this long, heavily-used trail.

Gary, thank you for your intelligent reply. Well put.

I'm working on a letter to the Forest Service, probably at the Regional level. One of their five 2009 Strategic Priorities is to conduct the NEPA process better. I think this situation will give them an opportunity to see if they mean it. They could easily finish the environmental process they started and involve the public transparently, as required. Without lawsuits. I'm an Engineer, a "fixer" by nature as Gary puts it. Lawsuits rarely produce the best end result. I stated several times I'm not interested in that. By explaining how the process is suppose to go, it may seem like I'm advocating something but I'm not.

I feel done with this thread unless I need to defend myself or correct technical misunderstandings. I really do have a wife and two kids and I really did not have time for this. But no regrets.