Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Sierras Less Crowded Today Than 70's ?

I am tring to find the article right now but I read a few months ago that the number of hikers/climbers in the eastern sierras reached its peak in the mid-late 70's and has declined ever since then ? Do your personal observations concur with this ?

This is a loaded question - to answer you have to be old enough to have enjoyed the eastern Sierras in the 70's.

While I was in grade school in Iowa in the 70's, I've hiked every major holiday this summer (east and west side) and I can say there is room for a few more people out there. Except for the lines at the Half Dome cables I've never really seen it "crowded". Even the main trail on a holiday isn't bad - plenty of places where you're alone and certainly better than Sea World or Disneyland.

I lead Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts in an effort to get MORE people into the backcountry. I had my Troop up at the Portal and up to LPL in June and they loved it. Even the little cubbies like getting out for a hike - if we can just keep them into it and away from video games for a little while..................DUG

While day hiking up Whitney is probably as busy as it has ever been, backpacking does seem to have peaked during the 1970s. I don't have a lot of experience with the Sierras, but it certainly seems to be the case down here in SoCal's mountains.

I was thinking about this the other day and was wondering what it would take to get a breakdown on the Wilderness Permits issued in San Gorgonio for the last 30 years.

I just spent Labor Day weekend backpacking along the second most popular trail in the San Gorgonio Wilderness. We hardly saw anyone the entire three days.

I bet the beach was pretty crowded.

All anyone would need would be Wilderness Permit data for the last 40 years or so. I am sure the Forest Service and the Park Service have this information . . . somewhere.

geez . . . I remember in the old days, when you picked up a permit for San Jacinto, the rangers would tell you what the "fecal" count was in the water so you could decide if you wanted to drink it or not. Several times, on a scale of 1-10, it was a 9. You never hear that these days, so that tells me there are not as many people. I also remember hoards of people on the San Gorgonio trails when the trail started at Poop Out Hill. Now there are times when we are lucky to see 5 or 6 people. Ice House Canyon and Baldy - now that's another story . . .

"Several times, on a scale of 1-10, it was a 9. You never hear that these days, so that tells me there are not as many people."

Actually, it means that today, they have to actually tell the truth, as it is too easy to check.

As to my answer to the question: yes.

Except for the 'trophy' peaks like Whitney and Half Dome, I'd say backcountry use has dropped off since the 70's/early 80s. Even areas like Bishop Creek and the Mammoth area don't seem to be that busy anymore. Even use of national parks seems to have declined.

I don't spend much time in National Parks anymore, but I was at Giant Forest in early May and was amazed there was almost no one there. The hospitality workers down in Three Rivers told me it was still early in the season, but would seem likely National park visits have declined.

When I was a kid (30-40 years ago), climbing into the car and going to National Parks is what families did in the summer. Nowadays I would be very surprised if I heard one of my friends with kids say that was what they were going to do next summer.

Anyway, the data are out there. The Park Service and Forest Service have them.

It is my personal belief that the online reservation methods used today has added significantly to the dwindling numbers of backcountry users in our national parks. Problem is, I see no way to fix this and still keep the campgrounds/trailheads full.

In Yosemite for example, you can now (must) reserve a place/campsite/trailhead for a larger group, up to 6 months in advance…thus, when you call up or check online in May, all available trailheads are already marked “full”, forcing families not as foresighted to seek other possible vacation venues. Why plan a last minute (less than one month in advance) hiking vacation for the family when there is the distinct possibility that you will be denied backcountry entry just showing up and hoping for the best.

There is no way for the park to know that a good 1/3 of these reservations will actually bow out until the day when they actually show up at the park, (if they show up at all), now with 4 people for a reservation previously made for 8.

A smaller hiking party ( solo or 2) will usually still get any desired trail wanted – Next day only permits – but taking a large family unit to the mountains without prior reservations is harder than ever. From talking with a ranger there, a good 1/3 of the Yosemite wilderness permits available are unused, but the “books” always show them as full.

A little bit south of the Sierra but, in doing San Gorgonio this week( started Tuesday afternoon and returned Thursday afternoon), we saw more big horn sheep than people on the hike. How often can you say that? Here are a couple of them right off the summit. http://www5.snapfish.com/slideshow/Album..._NAME=snapfish/

OK,I'll bite on this and confess that I've been going to the Sierra backcountry since the mid 60's. Many folks I've talked to say the California backcountry is in fact less crowded than the backpacker peak in the 70's, even as car-bound visitation of Yosemite has increased. Nonetheless, it doesn't appear to be that simple, because some of the popular backcountry trails seem every bit as jammed as they were in the 70's. The less popular places seem to have experienced a huge fall off in use. The first thing I notice is the HUGE decline in off trail hiking. Use trails that were nearly highways in the 70's are now overgrown. The number of folks that dare to travel off trail, other than peak baggers, is very small compared to the 70's. In other Wilderness areas of CA, backcountry use has fallen so dramatically, even for trail-bound travelers that some areas where wilderness permits which were required in the 70's and 80's ceased to be required in the late 80's, early 90's. I remember this happened in the Marble Mtns. (Klamath Mtns area), but I don't know if they've reinstituted permits there since I haven't returned since 1993. The JMT/PCT and places such as Mt. Whitney and Half Dome may have actually increased in popularity since the 70's, but the number of folks who make it to a place like Kaweah Basin or such has undoubtedly declined hugely. I am reminded of a Desolation Wilderness guidebook (will date myself again, here) by Robert Wood (2nd edition published in mid 70's then book went out of print). He described a well worn use trail to Cup Lake above US 50. By 1988 this trail had vanished. When my wife and I were fortunate enough to meet the residents of the cabin "Tall Timber" which served as the marker point (in Wood's guide) for the start of the trail, they (multiple generations have used this cabin for some 100 plus years) mentioned that in the 70's many people walked up the trail but by the mid 80's the trail had become overgrown and impossible to follow. I am also amused by the "unmaintained" trails shown on the Kaiser Wilderness and Dinkey Lakes Wilderness maps. I have been traveling off trail for 40 plus years now, but I can tell you that all of these "unmaintained" trails I've attempted to follow exist on the map only.

Bottom line...If you go to Mt. Whitney, Half Dome, the JMT/PCT, Rae Lakes, Lyell Canyon, etc. you will not experience the drop off that has occurred in backcountry use. Go to less popular destinations and you certainly will, especially if they are off trail.

I started serious backpacking/climbing in the 60’s and I can honestly say that some areas in the Sierras have improved tremendously with the permit system, group size restrictions, camping restrictions, and campfire restrictions. I sure hate to think what the place would now look like without these restrictions! The amount of trash has decreased tremendously and with the removal of hundreds of ugly fire rings a lot of places have improved. With the introduction of bear-boxes I see less and less parachute cord draped trees.

For example Shadow Lake use to look like an overcrowded refugee camp – now it is a peaceful lunch spot. I hope it still is!

The Whitney area is much, much less crowded, but it still is a bloody zoo as far as I am concerned -- similarly for the Cottonwood Lakes area.

I remember in the late 60’s counting over 400 people (yes -- four hundred people) heading in on the day I was heading out from Thousand Island Lake area to Agnew Meadows. There were several groups of 40 or more people that were planning to camp at Garnet Lake or Thousand Island Lake. This was not a 10-sigma case because I had a similar experience hiking out from the Minarets to Red’s Meadow the next year!

I also remember similar hordes in the 60’s heading over Bishop Pass into Dusy Basin, Piute Pass into Humphries Basin, or Kearsarge Pass into Rae Lakes area. Young Lakes was also overrun by throngs of people as well as the Evolution Basin area where I remember seeing rather large tent cities at Sapphire Lake and Evolution Lake.

A couple of years ago I did the South Lake – North Lake route and noticed no tent cities and that the traffic was about 1/20 of what it was in the 60’s except for Darwin Canyon where the traffic has increased substantially (from zero to eight) but was mostly solo hikers. I recently returned to Humphries Basin area where it was mostly deserted except that traffic has picked up over Puppet Pass. I spent a week in the area climbing peaks and saw eight people -- mostly solo hikers.

I remember in the 60’s seeing nobody at Roosevelt Lake, Darwin Canyon, Mt. Conness, Mt. Agassiz, Sky Blue Lake, Goddard Canyon, McGee Lakes, and much of what is now called the “Sierra High Route” put together by Steve Roper. Now all these areas have much more traffic, but the group size generally is less than four people and you only see a couple of groups or a solo hiker per day, except for Mt. Conness which has become very popular. Years ago I never encountered anyone on this peak.

Yosemite Valley, Little Yosemite Valley, and Tuolumne Meadows area have become horrible beyond belief – I will never go back to these areas.

So in summary some areas have become less crowded and some areas more crowded. I have historically just use the trails to get into an interesting area and then take off cross country into the areas that are devoid of trails.

I was in high school in the early 70s and our scout troop went hiking all the time. My first time up Whitney was over Labor Day weekend around 1972,and I remember the switchbacks were like a freeway! I remember looking up and just seeing tons of people headed up the trail.

Why less people now? Excludes the JMT, Whitney areas, etc.

Except for the upper class:

Salaries not keeping up with inflation/health care costs.
Fewer vacation days.
Obesity.
Video games.
Quota system.

The recession hasn't made it easier to go backpacking either. If your boss gives you raised eyebrows when you ask for a week off and you know there are hundreds of people who would take your job in an instant, you probably won't go.

Well, you and giantbrookie raise another point vs how it was 30-40 years ago: the rise of "celebrity" vacation spots.

Today it seems if you mention "National Park" to the average Californian, he will instantly assume you are talking about Yosemite and maybe Yellowstone. There simply are no other choices. But when I was a kid, our family would explore. We never once went to Yosemite, but we did vacation at Mt Lassen, Bryce Canyon, Zion, Monument Valley, etc. And we weren't particularly outdoorsy, either.

We also see it with backcountry hiking and backpacking. The Whitney and John Muir Trails have become "celebrity" routes, with the rest of the backcountry largely ignored. I have always been amazed how many "hikers" will drive right past Mt San Gorgonio for another four or five hours to hike a trail, like Whitney, everyone else they know has hiked.

Anyway, except for day hikers on the "celebrity" trails, backcountry activity seems certainly to have declined. This leaves one mystery remaining:

Remember what a poor selection there was back in the 1970s of backpacks at your local mountain shop? Now REI has a wall of very expensive packs in every store, and people seem to be buying them up year after year. If these people aren't actually spending any time in the backcountry, WTF are they doing with all this shiny expensive gear?

Hiking and backpacking are generally the least expensive vacation options available. If money was a factor, you'd see more people in the backcountry, not fewer.

I'd say the problem is the opposite: today people's holiday expectations are much higher than before. When I was a kid, no one around me would dream of getting onto an airplane and flying to a far-away resort for a vacation; everyone got into their station wagons and drove somewhere, usually no more than a day or two away.

Early in my first marriage my then-wife and I were hiking out on the High Sierra Trail with a father and his young daughter. When we got to the end at Crescent Meadow, I found myself using the sink in the restroom next to the father. He commented to me how fortunate it was that my wife and I could enjoy backpacking and camping as it would be a far more economical vacation choice once we started having kids. This was in 1986 and is a conversation I have clearly remembered all these years since (though I never did have any kids).

Perhaps the same thing most SUV owners are doing with their SUVs.

Oh, SUV owners are driving their SUVs.

We had SUVs when I was a kid, except we called them station wagons (later we got a van). Served precisely the same purpose.

This is a great point----I think people are used to spending more money to do "easier" vacations now.

Also, in my experience as a Scoutmaster for the last 8 years----most kids do not get out and hike/experience the backcountry. I can honestly say that of the 10 troops I know around my location, we are the ONLY one that gets out and hikes (Whitney, San Jacinto, San Gorgonio, Baldy, SB Peak, etc) at least 8 times a year. Scout leaders and scouts just don't seem inclined to get out and experience hiking.

And, what's funny, everytime I do a hike (every month), my co-workers lampoon me for doing it. Why in the world would you want to go hiking? Bugs, dirt, out in the middle of nowhere, no phone service, etc. I think most of our society now is used to being pampered, and don't think of getting sweaty, dirty, and tired by hiking as a fun way to spend their weekend. They'd rather watch sports on tv, get a massage, or golf.

That's been my experience. But honestly, that's fine with me---fewer people on the trail!!!

Are you with Troop 773?

I grew up in Laguna Niguel, and first got involved with Troop 773 (in about 1973 or 1974). But after a few months I wondered what the point was, as they didn't seem to do anything but hold meetings.

Then I heard about Troop 12 in San Juan Capistrano. In those days they were associated with, I think, the Lions Club or one such service group and they met at a special Scout Hut that was owned by the sponsoring service organization (they were not "uniquely Christ-based" as the current website states, thankfully). I joined Troop 12 because they did 11 backpacking trips per year; no car camping, except the annual district Camporee.

Sadly, if you look at Troop 12's current website, you can see that now they do very little backpacking at all. They have about one outing a month, but it mostly seems to be car-camping. It's really a shame, as the old Troop 12 was about the best troop I can imagine.