Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Personal locater beacons - the Yuppie's 911

Just when I thought I'd heard it all (again), this was just forwarded to the mountain rescue community by Matt Scharper, Deputy Chief State SAR coordinator, Office of Emergency Services, Sacramento. "Yuppie 911"

Scharper is quoted with "There's controversy over these devices in the first place because it removes the self-sufficiency that's required in the backcountry. With the Yuppie 911, you send a message to a satellite and the government pulls your butt out of something you shouldn't have been in in the first place."

That's not a new observation, but in his email to the California mountain rescue teams, Scharper added "There have been various reports of sporting goods stores in California marketing PLB's and SPOT's in place of avalanche transceivers."

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not arguing against them, because they have their place for wilderness travelers. I wouldn't argue for them, either, because using one should be a personal decision. I am saying that, if someone believes it can function as an avalanche beacon (or mosquito repellent or birth control or...), suggest they contact the company for clarification.

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"If you build it, they will misuse it." (Apologies to Ray Kinsella.)

I really think these beacons are going to cause more people to get themselves in trouble. It gives you a false sense of security.

I believe PLBs can be great tools, but they of course are not a replacement for self sufficiency / survival skills. The marketing strategy that I've seen does not highlight this and is more of "use this and if you get in trouble you'll get bailed out" which is just asinine (apologies to Bear Grylls, lol). It's probably too late since too many have been sold, but there should be a required training/education class of some sort when they are sold.

And I'm flabbergasted with that part about people being told they can use a PLB instead of an avalanche beacon. Insane.

Well, before we get our shorts bunched up, read Bob R's quote again - "There have been reports ...". By whom? Are they accurate/believable? etc.

lol. My shorts aren't really in a bunch heh, heh. Just the thought that someone might recommend that...

Also, I realized my apologies should be to Les Stroud, not Bear Grylls.

Didn't mean to have the post seem directed at you personally - sorry. Was trying to direct it the larger wps bb community.

And my car dealer said I'd get 60 mpg and attract women...
Retailers aren't very reliable sources of information. Too bad, but not really McMurdo or Spot's fault.

I am seriously thinking of a PLB. When I hike with my kids I always think "what if I drop dead?" On a busy trail it's not that big a deal (well it would be for me :o) , but what about in winter or off-trail- even out a mile or so I can't rely on my 6 year old being able to navigate out.

The most important thing is to be just as skilled, just as equipped, and just as cautious whether or not you carry the beacon.

I have been surprised by the number of people that I have come across in the past two years who do not know the basic functions of SPOT.

Mandatory training would seem to be a partial solution to the problem of users just pulling it out of the box and inserting batteries.

I'm wondering what is going to happen when the yuppies (and younger crowd) get wind of the fact that a new DeLorme device is going to have the capability to text via satellite integrated with GPS and SPOT? (Mike sent me a press release.)

Throw the stick see spot run???

Beat 'em with a stick?

Sounds kind of contradictory, but you are correct that the emphasis needs to be on learning the skills (landmark reading, travel time/average mph, sun position, reverse checks, common sense) that have served mankind for millennia---not using technology as a substitute---and that goes for your 6-year-old.

What has always worked with my kids (and adults when I'm guiding) is to put them out front and let them experience the decision making process. You just back them up and ask the right questions when a navigation issue arises. Don't just lead and point things out. A 6-year-old should be more than capable of successfully navigating something akin to the Mountaineer's Route up and down (in good weather), or a couple miles of off-trail/cross-country---given the right skillset, practice and competent support.

True, but would he have the presence of mind to do it after experiencing the trauma of his dad dropping dead- or let's say unconscious?

What about deactivating all retail beacons, and making them available only on loan from ranger stations, after you view a short video and pay a fee? That might weed out the faint hearted and keep usage down to a dull roar. Questions could also be
asked, like "Why do you feel you need this service?" and "Have you been to this area before ?" The men and materiel that get mobilized in a search effort overwhelmingly justifies making beacons a little difficult to obtain.

Love it, Bob... I may have to borrow this quote on occasion.

I purchased and use a SPOT so i may send an OK signal to my daughters. My girls brought it to my attention and asked me to purchase it so they would have peace of mind when i am in the backcountry. The OK signal was very convenient last summer when i decided to stay an extra day in the backcountry and let them know that all was well. I did not buy it with the intention of using the 911 signal. I know it's there, but i hope i will never have the need.

My daughter has been trained since her first hike at two years old in what to do during emergencies. As she got older her training increases, as do her abilities. Last summer at 11 years old, she was the navigator on our three seperate seven day backcountry trips. She can function quite well with topo maps and compasses. I frequently go over what would you do if there were situations while in the back country and at home. Since she was two she also carries a minimum of a fanny pack with emergency & navigation gear. I feel that if something should happen to me she should be able to take care of herself for several days with just what she has in her BRAIN and emergency kit. I do not see the need for a 911 button if you are trained and practice for emergencies. I am an ex rescue instructor/ medic/firefighter. Nothing beats what you carry in your head. ADAPT IMPROVISE OVERCOME

I'm waiting until Spot 3 comes out. I understand there will be a new button that, when pushed, will have Pizza Factory deliver via helicopter.

I think you can get that as an upgrade for Spot 2.

I couldn't agree more, Dustrunner. People abuse 9-1-1 constantly, but do we ask people to take a class, pass a test and be given a special license before using it? Then again, I do believe there should be consequences for abusing 9-1-1, just as there are for abusing PLBs (Over $100,000.00 fine, 6 months in prison.)

No, a PLB won't dig you out of avalance debris, throw you a rescue rope as you're being swept down an icy stream, or apply a pressure bandage to keep you from bleeding to death. It won't perform a self-arrest for you. It is absolutely no substitute for knowledge, skills, good judgment, or carrying the right gear for the environment/situation. But no matter how good your skills, judgment, fitness or gear, it's possible you could take a mistep on talus, tumble down a slope and break a leg. Does that mean you DESERVE to die? (Even a broken leg can be life-threatening, if a person is slowly but steadily bleeding internally.)

I always leave a detailed itinerary with my wife, but I do a lot of solo hiking and a lot of it is off trail. It might be awfully hard to find me once I'm declared overdue, even if my general plans are known. Maybe your emergency is something even further out of your control. What if you develop appendicitis? Of course, one could argue that solo hiking is irresponsible. But one could also argue that it's irresponsible to leave the safety of your home at all. Or at least, without being accompanied by a doctor and a big bag of medical supplies.

I'm fine with people deciding NOT to carry a PLB, but I don't feel you have the right to deny my wife the peace of mind she'd like to have, just because there are idiots in the world, who will misuse a PLB. And don't call me a yuppie, just because I prefer a larger margin of safety than you prefer. Maybe you shouldn't carry a map, compass, or an ice axe, or use a trail at all. Kinda wimpy, don't you think? (Just kidding.)

I just received my new PLB in the mail today. Even at a mere 5.3 oz, I'm loathe to add the extra weight to my pack. But my family and friends are very happy and relieved. Hey, THEY don't need to know that it's no substitute for good judgment!

BTW, the manufacturer includes plenty of info with the PLB. You have to register your PLB with NOAA, so THAT's the time to require a test or questionaire be completed - not at a ranger station when I'm trying to get on the trail and I'm already dealing with a red tape delay. (Some National Forests and National Parks aren't using new enough technology to allow me to get a wilderness permit in advance, online.)

Hypothetical scenario:

You and your daughter are out on a wonderful hike in the high Sierra backcountry. Suddenly, rockfall comes out of nowhere and nails you in the head. You are severely injured; unconscious, but alive. Now, your daughter, supremely trained, has all the skills to keep herself alive for days or even weeks. But your injuries are severe - beyond anything that can be treated on the trail, even by a medic. She's faced with a delimma: There's no one else around anywhere, haven't seen a soul in days, and there's no way she can carry or drag you out. Leave you, or stay? Either way the situation's grim.

Alternate scenario: All of the above, except you have a PLB. She presses the button and wait's for SAR to arrive, keeping dad warm and safe in the meantime.

Or reverse the situation: What if it were your daughter who was hit by rockfall? How would you feel if you were completely unable to save her life because even though you hypothetically might be able to carry/drag both her 80lbs (?*) + a subset of your two packs the 40 miles to the trailhead, it will take days of hard travel if it could even realistically be done?

There's nothing wrong with having and using a PLB, as long as it's used in a true emergency. Saving lives is what SAR teams exist for.

* Just picking a random number for illustrative purposes.