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...The only negative feedback to keep this sane is going to be financial responsibility and jail time.
If I put my mind to it, I can probably come up with alternatives to fines and putting people in jail. 
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How about people who initiate false alarms on their PLB have to perform 100 hours of fund-raising work for the SAR team impacted?
Last edited by ClamberAbout; 01/20/10 06:22 PM.
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How about people who initiate false alarms on their PLB have to perform 100 hours of fund-raising work for the SAR team impacted? Excellent idea. Or just plain work (leave the fundraising to those who know best how to do it -- it's not something everyone knows how to do, which could actually end up being counter-productive to the organization trying to raise the funds, if it's not done well). CaT
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Sometimes in climbing we dont recongnize when our life or those around us are truely in danger. Sometimes we think we are fine when we are not and sometimes we think we are in danger when we are not.
It would be a tall and odious task to write a law that states clearly when we are allowed to feel our life is in danger and when we are NOT allowed to feel it is in danger.
I can just imagine I am hiking down the trail and come across someone who says they are very tired and thirsty and ask me to hit my SPOT and call in an emergency rescue. As a fit 35 yr old I will probably be inclinded to say "look at this overweight city slicker who is just merely tired and little thirsty and who doesnt want to put in he effort to hike out". I refuse to activate for fear of breaking the new CA law and thus being responsible for tens of thousands of dollars in rescue costs.
I find out later that the person in question was suffering an unknown serious medical problem that later killed them.
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...The only negative feedback to keep this sane is going to be financial responsibility and jail time.
If I put my mind to it, I can probably come up with alternatives to fines and putting people in jail. If you say so. I'd like to say this all could be a non-problem, despite the high-profile and outrageous stories, but I don't know. Give people a chance to show their quality . . .?
"The lonliness of great men is part of their ability to create. Character, like a photograph,
develops in darkness." - Yousef Karsh
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California is basically bankrupt, in part because its citizens love to throw lots of people in jail for almost anything. Why not add SAR errors to the list of crimes? As long as the cost of arrest, trial, and incarceration totals a lot more than the cost of the SAR, maybe we can sink the state totally.
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OK, I bought Son of Spot, not because I wanted it, but because it gives my family peace of mind. I hike/backpack solo. Even the most experienced person can be in the wrong place/wrong time. Spot is not 100% accurate, but my family relaxes when they get the I'm OK, and they'll know my last location if I go missing. Just another tool, not perfect. And yes, I'm annoyed by the extra weight and pushing the stupid buttons, but it's a fair trade off so they feel better. 2 Cents.
Karen
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I've never used one but I am niether for nor against it... I can see it being useful for solo adventures, and perhaps some other situations but personally I think if I had it I would be more paranoid that something would happen, kind of the whole, I just spent $1000 at the mechanic and I drive 3 blocks and the car is totaled in an accident  . But I do like the Pizza Factory upgrade idea!
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My daughter has been trained since her first hike at two years old in what to do during emergencies. As she got older her training increases, as do her abilities. Last summer at 11 years old, she was the navigator on our three seperate seven day backcountry trips. She can function quite well with topo maps and compasses. I frequently go over what would you do if there were situations while in the back country and at home. Since she was two she also carries a minimum of a fanny pack with emergency & navigation gear. I feel that if something should happen to me she should be able to take care of herself for several days with just what she has in her BRAIN and emergency kit. I do not see the need for a 911 button if you are trained and practice for emergencies. I am an ex rescue instructor/ medic/firefighter. Nothing beats what you carry in your head. ADAPT IMPROVISE OVERCOME Hypothetical scenario: You and your daughter are out on a wonderful hike in the high Sierra backcountry. Suddenly, rockfall comes out of nowhere and nails you in the head. You are severely injured; unconscious, but alive. Now, your daughter, supremely trained, has all the skills to keep herself alive for days or even weeks. But your injuries are severe - beyond anything that can be treated on the trail, even by a medic. She's faced with a delimma: There's no one else around anywhere, haven't seen a soul in days, and there's no way she can carry or drag you out. Leave you, or stay? Either way the situation's grim. Alternate scenario: All of the above, except you have a PLB. She presses the button and wait's for SAR to arrive, keeping dad warm and safe in the meantime. Or reverse the situation: What if it were your daughter who was hit by rockfall? How would you feel if you were completely unable to save her life because even though you hypothetically might be able to carry/drag both her 80lbs (?*) + a subset of your two packs the 40 miles to the trailhead, it will take days of hard travel if it could even realistically be done? There's nothing wrong with having and using a PLB, as long as it's used in a true emergency. Saving lives is what SAR teams exist for. * Just picking a random number for illustrative purposes. Lets run this back in time, in the days before cell phones and all that STUFF. If I was with my father in the 1970s and any of that happened. I would use what I had to get help; fire, smoke, emergency blanket tied up as a flag, signal mirror to any aircraft or any humans seen in the distance, whistling noises, etc. I think that IF you are going to own and carry a device like SPOT, you should: Be able to purchase it anywhere you want, but can not take possession of it until you have taken a class in wilderness safety and basic rescue, and be issued a license from a SAR manager to carry and use the device. It should only be used if a true life hazard exists, not because you are in over your head and get into trouble. As our equipment gets better and lighter I have seen more people venture out where they do not belong, becoming injured because they lack training, experience or both. This thus can potentially endanger others invloved in their rescue. What if the SPOT battery dies, or SPOT gets lost along the way? If you did not know how to deal with life endangering scenarios yourself, how would you be able to stay alive or keep anyone else alive?
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Steve, I think that the initial problem that Norma had was that she could not stay at the injury scene. Once the 911 feature is activated, the rescue site would be determined by where the SPOT unit was transmitting from, thus, Norma would have been obligated to stay at the scene, otherwise, SAR would be chasing her down as the victim, further complicating the situation.
B
The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
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[quote=Fuji Guy] i chose to stay quiet and not mention i had a SPOT.
anyone care to comment on my decision and/or the use of SPOT for another party in this situation? Under all of the circumstances, use of your SPOT that day would not have sped things up much, and I think you made the right call not to use it, all things considered.
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since there were hikers already on their way down with instructions, i chose to stay quiet and not mention i had a SPOT. Hmmm.... Seems like you might have offered them the option of declining or using the button. I doubt Norma offering the use of her SPOT would have had any effect on the outcome, except to scare the heck out of her daughters (and me). The victim's injuries were not life threatening and she was in good hands with Sara and others attending to her. The location has to be taken into consideration as well. It's not like this occured in Dusy Basin--it's a 45 minute jog at best from the ski hut down to the highway.
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i'm thinking about getting a spot simply to let my family know where i am, and that i'm okay...i don't think i'd consider it a serious rescue device, if i wanted one of those i would buy an acr plb that operated on 406...
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Lets run this back in time, in the days before cell phones and all that STUFF. If I was with my father in the 1970s and any of that happened. I would use what I had to get help; fire, smoke, emergency blanket tied up as a flag, signal mirror to any aircraft or any humans seen in the distance, whistling noises, etc.
I think that IF you are going to own and carry a device like SPOT, you should: Be able to purchase it anywhere you want, but can not take possession of it until you have taken a class in wilderness safety and basic rescue, and be issued a license from a SAR manager to carry and use the device. It should only be used if a true life hazard exists, not because you are in over your head and get into trouble.
As our equipment gets better and lighter I have seen more people venture out where they do not belong, becoming injured because they lack training, experience or both. This thus can potentially endanger others invloved in their rescue.
What if the SPOT battery dies, or SPOT gets lost along the way? If you did not know how to deal with life endangering scenarios yourself, how would you be able to stay alive or keep anyone else alive?
I don't dispute any of that, and I agree with most of your points however you missed *my* point: The availability of a PLB (Spot is just one example), can save a life that otherwise couldn't be saved. As in my scenario. Remember, I said, "haven't seen a soul in days". Your signal fire, mirror, and flag waving would likely be useless. In your counter-example, your father would simply die. In my example, with a PLB, at least there is the possibility of aid being summoned. Remember, I also said a PLB should only be used in a true emergency. However all the training in the world won't save someone or get you out of a situation where you simply need immediate HELP. Case in point: Aron Ralston survived by virtue of his training and wit, at the loss of his arm. Had he had a PLB, it's quite possible the outcome would have been different. I'm not trying to persuade *you* to carry one; simply saying that it's okay for folks who do wish to. It's basically insurance. Some want it; some don't. Do whatever you want.
Last edited by ClamberAbout; 01/22/10 09:52 PM.
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There are some good points that have been made here; maybe something will come of this.
I worked in the 911 system. A large amount of the calls are not 911.(true emergency) Having said that false alarms are worse, chasing down false alarms tires out the people who have to respond to them. Most responders in rural areas are voulenteers. People need to be trained as to what is a real emergency. What an untrained person perceives to be an emergency and what I see as an emergency may be vastly different.
If you join a volunteer fire department or an SAR team, your perspective on the 911 button being used will change. Try getting out of bed several times a night to drive to the station, and get in a rig, only to find the call to be a false alarm. Try spending a day in a dispatch center, and you will be amazed at what people call 911 for.
I fully support Volunteer and Paid rescue, and I am against abusing them.
I am not against carrying one, but I am against unnecessary dispatches. For true emergencies, the buttons are perfectly useful and helpful. I stand by the idea that all users be trained and signed off by a SAR manager in proper use. It's an emergency tool; not a security blanket.
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I believe that it's fine to bring a SPOT to tell friends and family where you are, but I've grown up with my dad telling me to not trust electronic tools, because the batteries could run down, or you could lose it, or something else could happen.
I disagree with the use of SPOT as a 911 button, and I think that people with kids should try to help them learn how to use a compass, and other basic backcountry tools before they are centered off of electronics. I love using my GPS, personally, but if I owned a SPOT, I would never use that as my only survival tool.
About a year ago, my mom was hurt by a lawn mower, and our phone cable was down. We have horrible cell phone service, and I just barely managed to get through to 911. If I hadn't been able to keep calm, even without a way to get through to the emergency support easily, my mom could have lost her fingers. J
Just imagine; if you were out in the backcountry with your children, and an avalanche came out of nowhere and crushed you, how would your kids be able to cope if the SPOT failed? While SPOT can potentially be an excellent tool, it could also be a fatal weapon against you. What if the SPOT was in your backpack when you were crushed, and your body was buried underneath a pile of rubble? Would everyone carry their own personal SPOT?
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"It's an emergency tool; not a security blanket."
I think you hit the nail right on the head with this statement right here, and this is what needs to be emphasized to consumers.
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See Dick See Dick hike hike Dick hike See Spot see spot run run spot run dick has a blister and needs to get home. But seriously, have you seen the new Delorme Earthmate? link to amazon to see it does anyone have reports or am I being elementary and missing the thread?
Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.
Helen Keller
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I'm wondering what is going to happen when the yuppies (and younger crowd) get wind of the fact that a new DeLorme device is going to have the capability to text via satellite integrated with GPS and SPOT? (Mike sent me a press release.) Just yanking your chain Carole.
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