Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board New Gun Law for National Parks

Yes, of course. It was meant as an illustration that in most cases, good judgement is a far more powerful tool than a firearm. And yes, I am fully trained in an array of sidearms and rifles, and outside of combat, I choose to arm myself with good judgement.....and peanut M&M's, which also means that I am not venturing into Grizz country, either (because I heard that they like peanut M&Ms, thus, I might be tempted to carry and use a Desert Eagle with extreme prejudice)

Fuji Guy,
I hear you on the permit needing to be issued by some agency but where is a cite that shows one has the right to carry concealed.

OK Richard, I give. What am I missing? You never post without a good purpose - am I just being extra dense this morning?

Scratch that - I missed Passinthru's post just prior. Got it now.

FYI Passinthru, I've been watching this board for a couple of years - there are some great signature quotes people use, but I honestly like yours the best. Been meaning to say that for a long time.

Agreed Stacy - unless Bee is carrying that Desert Eagle - that thing might stop a charging bull elephant! It's really just conjecture on my part and a desire not to feel completely helpless against a big ol' brown. I've only made two hiking trips to Grizzly country over the years, and I can tell you that my mind was never at ease like it is on a normal ramble through all the other parks I've hiked. I've hiked a lot in mountain lion country but, aside from a greater sense of awareness and watching the heights more closely, it's never bothered me. My last "Grizzly Hike", North Cascades, I had my Counter Assault handy, but I also carried an air horn - a really loud one. My 8 YO daughter was with me at the time, so I'm sure that added greatly to my apprehension. I watched for bears, she watched for Bigfoot.

I just jumped into this topic to share a thought or two, not because the new law will affect my hiking behavior in any way. I've always hiked unarmed and will continue to do so. That's my personal preference. I don't have an issue, however, with other responsible gun-owners exercising their right to carry in a NP. We all know it goes on anyway, so I don't expect much to change. As others have pointed out, this law really only affects those licensed, responsible individuals who are rarely if ever the problem.

As I mentioned earlier, though, what I'd really love to see is more women out on the trails without having to worry excessivley about the two-legged predators in the woods. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that no known instance of open carrying would have benefitted a hiker in Yosemite. I have a hard time swallowing that (never been a trail rape or assualt against a woman ever in Yosemite?), but I'll take it at face value. I will point out again, though, that two years ago here in my neck of the woods, 3 women and an older gentleman were brutally murdered on the trails for their cash and credit cards by a serial killer (Gary Hilton) who was armed only with a police baton and a knife. I have no doubt that, had these women been openly armed, they would still be out enjoying the wilderness today.

If this law gets more women out on the trails with confidence, and as a byproduct reduces assaults, rapes and other gender-specific violence in the wilderness, I say hellelujah!

Good one , Richard P. Why didn't I think of an umbrella? Of course they are banned from stadium sporting events, rock concerts, etc., but not the mountains..............steve

Bulldog, this post also had me baffled too. It took me awhile but I finally figured out it was related to the previous post by "passinthru."

Anyway, I am from the Bay Area but not part of the anti-gun lobby. I do own shot guns and a 22 rifle with a scope and go to the range with my one daughter that has shown some interest in these matters. I purchased the "guns" after witnessing some of those interesting confrontations during the Katrina chaos. I just saw it on TV but when I saw men turning away looters from their doorsteps with their 12 gauge warning shot, it made me realize that a major earthquake and it's aftermath would probably have similar consequences here in the Bay Area. Law enforcement would be taking care of their own the first few days or weeks and so "we" would be on our own for awhile.

I take yearly visits to friends in Nebraska, who live and grew up on farms. The culture there is very much different, as you know, from our East and West Coasts and most urban settings in the US. They grew up around hunting, guns, and the true awareness that the meat that they eat does not come from cellophane wrapped packages. They know first hand what happens when a bullet tears into living flesh and the consequences for the deer or other animals that they've killed. They butcher and dress their own kills in a proud and reverent demeanor.

I used to work for ATT and I had a coworker, who was a Vietnam veteran, who was an avid hunter before the war, and totally gave it up after he saw the carnage and life loss right before his eyes. I wonder how many of the "open carry" people have done a lot of target practice and training but haven't seen first hand what a bullet can do to a living being, even an animal (not human being).

I say this because I am worried that many of the "open carry" people don't have this awareness. Many might not have the proper respect that one must have for such a powerful weapon. I have been in Big 5 Sporting Goods watching obvious gang bangers buy hollow point rounds and the sales people don't blink and eye on check out. Yes, they are only using their constitutional rights! They don't buy guns, just the ammo. Sorry, I'm probably not using the proper words for you, but you get my point.

I think we are going to have a problem when many people in California, maybe not Georgia, are walking around with "unloaded" firearms with a clip or magazine in the other pocket, 2 seconds away from being fully ready to fire a round.

I like the, possibly, illusionary serenity of the Sierra back country. Maybe I just don't know that many people carrying concealed firearms right now on the trails.

Thanks for expressing your viewpoint to me and us. We really, in my opinion, are not that far apart.

Sorry, bulldog34. I confused you with Fuji. I CERTAINLY WON'T DO THAT AGAIN!

Icystair, good commentary. If a problem does pop up in the California parks with a cowboy mentality, I'd chalk it up to the gun laws being so stringent there over the years and depriving gun-owners their rights as they see them - to carry for personal protection outside the home. Sort of like a released Vietnam POW gorging on steak, burgers and beer after years of captivity in the Hanoi Hilton. Pretty soon, though, it won't be shiny and new and most folks will not bother. It's not out of the question, but I'd be surprised. After all, we're only talking about national parks - not some sweeping open-carry law that was passed for the entire state. Actually, Florida went through that a few years ago - almost all restrictions on open-carry were relaxed. As I recall, not a lot changed as a result, other than stranger-on-stranger crime dropping significantly. I'm sure someone will throw a statistic out that counters that, but that was what I recall reading at the time.

For Georgia, and most of the other thirty-something states who have always adhered to the "shall issue" perspective on permits and don't restrict ownership on any grounds other than felony conviction or mental issues, it's just no big deal. Guns are a normal part of the background and always have been. Atlanta is no exception, although we've had politicians over the years who have tried to curtail firearms liberties with little success. As one of the 7 or 8 largest metro areas in the country (about six million population, with no freakin' end in sight I might add), Atlanta is comparable to or larger than many big American cities where firearms are heavily restricted (SF Bay Area and Washington/Baltimore are great examples), but you'd never know it visiting the city. Walking down a city street, shopping, dining or any other daily activity looks no different than it does in say, San Francisco. Actually, it does - you don't get panhandled nearly as bad in Atlanta as you do in Frisco. I pointed out on a different thread a while back that during the 1996 Summer Olympics metro shooting ranges had a record month of volume, particularly with rental weapons. It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

In LA, New York, Chicago or Frisco, you wonder who might be armed. In Atlanta, Dallas, Houston or Miami, you don't have to wonder - just assume everyone is armed, and you'll be right more than wrong. None of this permit stuff for home, auto, etc., or - for God's sake - weapons allowed with a permit, but only unloaded. That particular permit twist strikes me as just asinine. If there's a firearm in someone's auto or on their person in Georgia, it's loaded. I'd love to see that one try to get pushed through the state legislature.

So initially it may be alarming to some to see firearms in evidence at national parks, but I'm betting it won't be that big a deal or last that long. Most conscientious gun-owners don't like to advertise the fact that they're armed (except in a clearly deterrent situation), and those who come openly packed simply because they've never been allowed to before will probably grow tired of it after a while. Seriously, I've owned handguns for over 30 years and spent 20 of those with a 9mm semi-auto within easy reach in my vehicle, but I've never been tempted to strap it on for a hike. As I pointed out earlier, I hope more women take advantage of this than men. It wouldn't bother me at all to see every female hiker on the trails packin' heat and not the least bit shy about it. It might settle down some of those rambunctious cowboys out there in the wild that everyone seems so worried about.

And Icy, don't worry 'bout it - I knew what you meant!

bulldog34 -

Am curious - is it common practice for employees to "pack heat" at their place of employment, (outside of law enforcement agencies), in the Atlanta area, even if it's not legal?

Curiously enough Kevin, that's been a nagging issue over the years and was finally addressed by the legislature in 2008. Most employers have a quite understandable no-weapons policy, and technically that extends to the entire premises - including the parking lots/garages/decks. Most "armed" Atlantans are armed in the sense that there's a pistol in the glovebox or console, so technically hundreds of thousands of Atlantans' jobs were at risk every day that they went to work and parked on company property. Two summers ago the legislature enacted a bill that prevents (most) employers from banning secure firearms in a private vehicle on their premises. See the link below for more detail.

If your question is in the sense of, "Will the smartass kid behind the counter at Ikea have a .44 magnum inside his smock", obviously the answer is no. When I say that Atlantans are incredibly well armed, I'm referring to the ever-present pistol in the auto. Extremely commonplace - and you'd be shocked how many women are in that category.

Carrying openly? Not that much. Seriously, who wants to wander around with a Walther or Glock strapped to their hip? Doesn't matter if you're in Atlanta or L.A. - it simply draws attention, and most people don't want that, regardless of what the law allows.

Carry concealed? Oh, you bet brother - easy as 1-2-3. Apply for a permit at the local county magistrate's offices and, assuming you're not a felon or in some other questionable category, pick up your permit in a couple of weeks and carry most anywhere you want (except federal/state buildings and certain events like ballgames, concerts, etc). That was really my point: a concealed carry is - well, concealed. You don't know that the man or (increasingly) woman you just passed is armed, so you're just not aware of how many perfectly legal weapons cross your path in a given day - particularly in autos. And we're not as violent as a comparably-sized metro area like Washington/Baltimore where gun ownership is almost completely banned. It's only a big deal if you've had that right taken away or infringed and you've become used to that "norm". Cali, Illinois, NY and Jersey are not the norm for the US in firearms perspective - Georgia, Texas and Florida are much closer to that norm.

I used to have a concealed carry permit years ago, but very rarely used it. I quit renewing it about 1985. My whole purpose for being armed initially (1977 at age 20) was because I was the victim of two armed robberies within the space of four months. I was a long-haired hippie type at the time, and would have told you that I was pretty much anti-gun - but staring down the barrel of two pistols over such a short period changed my perspective. After "Your money or your life" # 2, I became a long-haired gun-toting hippie type. Eventually I realized the long hair and the hippie-ness were more talk than walk, and abandoned them both - but the guns have always stayed with me.

So in the ATL, does the chick in the office or cubicle next to you have a Beretta in her purse? If she has a CCW permit and is willing to risk her job, maybe so. Again, Georgia is no different from California in that regard - employers lose their collective minds over stuff like that, so it's forbidden. Is it in her vehicle? Probably. And really, nobody much cares.

It's amazing how quickly you'll get used to it, even coming from a background like California or New York. Our next-door neighbors moved here from the SF Bay area about ten years ago. The first few months they were aghast at the prevalence of firearms locally, and even more amazed at the nonchalant attitude surrounding them. Within a year, hubby was in my garage proudly showing me his shiny new Sig and wondering when we could head to the range together. When in Rome . . .

http://hr.blr.com/HR-news/HR-Administration/Security/New-Georgia-Gun-Law-Goes-into-Effect/

Bulldog, thanks re. Erasmus. Our youngest son moved from So. Cal. to Southwest Missouri 4 years ago. He and his wife both have CCW's. They live in the country 12 miles out from a town of 450 and he is a volunteer fireman so he KNOWS the response times involved. You are on your own for quite a while so you better be prepared. Of course, he has a 225 yard range in his back pasture so he stays in practice..............steve

The San Francisco Bay Area has a lot of auto break-ins. Atlanta isn't exactly Shangri-la in that respect either. I was wondering in my mind that, if so many people keep loaded guns in their glove compartments or under their seats, it seems pretty easy for the "bad guys" to break into cars and have a good chance at scoring a gun. (Alan K., I know you're going to say that bears are the experts at breaking into vehicles!) So I Googled, Atlanta car break ins, and low and behold: An article from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, dated November 17, 20009.

From the article:

"Breaking into cars has seemingly become sport in Midtown, with the number of reported automobile larcenies more than doubling the weekly average, Atlanta police say.

And the thieves are walking away with more than just sunglasses or laptops. This year alone 120 handguns have been reported stolen from cars parked in Zone 5 -- which includes Midtown, downtown and Atlantic Station, said Atlanta Police Maj. Khirus Williams.

On a typical week, Zone 5 sees 66 car break-ins. But over a three-week period in October, more than 500 such incidents were reported, said Williams, Zone 5 commander. Nearly half were in Midtown, and most of those occurred in parking lots near commercial areas."

What a slippery slope for our National Parks to go down and the YouTube videos that Fuji posted don't exactly give me confidence that firearms are in the right hands.

Well, bears are expert at breaking into vehicles and there is a fundamental Constitutional right to arm bears, but I cannot find a documented example of a bear stealing a firearm from a vehicle. I think that they lose their focus over finding things like bags of Doritos.

So the people you saw in the videos were all about 45 yrs old on average and had NO criminal record WHATSOEVER. If you dont trust people like that with guns then you need to move to North Korea or get off your medication.

So Mr Fuji Guy, how old are you? About 25? You have that 25 year old attitude. Not very chivalrous are you. Screw the feelings of those people around you as long as you get your way.

It doesnt matter how old I am.

Let me ask you a question....Are you willing to forfeit your constitutional rights to make others around you feel more "serene" ? If so, which rights are you willing to give up ?

Your comments on this issue have ruined my sense of serenity on this board. Can you please forfeit your right to free speech so I can feel better about life ?

You are making my point for me. By the way, your rights stop where mine begin.

For future reference I suggest you read the United States Constitution and also The Bill of Rights.

Dont EVER ask me or any other American to forfeit their rights.

Okay. Well I think that concludes this debate.

Your ignorance of constitutional law betrays you.

Haha. I'm no constitutional scholar but you know what....I carry my gun wherever I want and the police and people like you have not yet been able to stop me.
Now, due to recent federal law I will be carrying in National Parks.
Sorry bro, learn to live with it

Now it's just your ignorance that betrays you. I feel for your family as it must be hard to find much pride in the things you find important.