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Well Kevin I hope you know the proper name you use for a snake that size: "Sir".
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Well Kevin I hope you know the proper name you use for a snake that size: "Sir". Yes, he was rather impressive. He wasn't aggressive, and it was in an area where human traffic is rather rare, so maybe that accounted for part of his behavior. However, when my friend and I first heard him, we were aware we'd been within striking distance. I saw a photo of an even more impressive fellow - I think the photo was posted last fall - of a big rattler in the Riverside (as I recall).
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This happened not in the Sierra but in an open space park in San Diego. I was mountain biking, crested a rise, started down the far side--and saw what was, far and away, the largest snake I'd ever seen, outside a zoo. It was a nine-foot rattler with nine rattles, and he was as thick as my upper forearm.
He was stretched almost the whole width of the service road I was on; his tail was still in the brush at the left, and his head was about two feet from the right side.
I was only a dozen feet from him, and it was impossible for me to stop. I didn't have the wits about me to try to jump over his middle, so I veered right and passed inches from his snout, hoping he couldn't stretch out any further. Once I was safely below him, I walked back to take a look. I guess I scared him as much as he scared me: Instead of finishing his journey across the road, he turned back the way he had come.
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I didn't have the wits about me to try to jump over his middle, so I veered right and passed inches from his snout, hoping he couldn't stretch out any further. Most vipers, including rattlers, can't really strike effectively unless they're coiled - that's what generates the lunging power, sort of like a spring. The problem is that a rattler can be lazily stretched out as you described, and then coiled and striking in the blink of an eye - a third of their body length, and sometimes more. Glad you're around to tell the story Karl - one that size was definitely in the deadly range.
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Here's a couple my wife and one of her partners, who work as wildlife biologists for Riverside County saw last year. The bottom image shows a rattler nearly 6 feet long. But, it was very passive. The top rattler....not so much! I've seen several rattlers over the years, mostly off to the side of trails, a few on the trail and even one that my dog walked over and didn't even see. Never had a close call, but one of the biologists at my wife's work did get bitten last year when hiking off trail and while not on the job. Once again, a cell phone helped out a lot.  
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That's it Joe - that first one is the same one you posted last fall, right? That is one scary-looking SOB!
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The ONLY thing that has any positive effect, is the administration of anti-venom. So, upon getting a bite, the only factor within control of the victim's party, is getting them to a hospital, other than removing constrictive clothing, rings, etc.
It may mean leaving them, while hiking for help. I'd do so near water.
There is NO first aid in the field that is of any help, other than removing constricting things such as rings.
The ONLY definite treatment is antivenom. The only thing to do is to get the victim to medical care. Walking out is a GOOD idea.
So Ken, if I am solo and two days off trail from the road and haven't seen anyone in those two days, should I just walk the two days back to the road? And, anything new on the Sawyer extractor (used without cutting of course)?
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Both Paragraphs are from Wikipedia:
#1
Untreated rattlesnake bites, especially from larger species, are very often fatal. However, antivenom, when applied in time, reduces the death rate to less than 4%. It is estimated that between 7,000 and 8,000 people are bitten by venomous snakes in the United States each year, and about five of those die.[2] About 72% of those bitten by rattlesnakes are male.[3]
#2
First aid
When a bite occurs, the amount of venom injected cannot be gauged easily. Symptoms and swelling may occur quickly, and may cause death easily but in some cases hours may pass before serious effects appear.
Experienced health workers typically gauge envenomation in stages ranging from 0, when there is no evident venom, to 5, when there is a life-threatening amount of venom present. The stages reflect the amount of bruising and swelling around the fang marks and the speed with which that bruising and swelling progresses. In more severe envenomation cases (stage 4 or 5) there may also be proximal symptoms, such as lip-tingling, dizziness, bleeding, vomiting, or shock. Difficulty breathing, paralysis, drooling, and massive haemorrhaging are also common symptoms.
Quick medical attention is critical, and treatment typically requires antivenin/antivenom to block the tissue destruction, nerve effects, and blood-clotting disorders common with rattlesnake venom. Most medical experts recommend keeping the area of the bite below the level of the heart. It is important to keep a snake bite victim calm in order to avoid elevating their heart rate and accelerating the circulation of venom within the body. Untrained individuals should not attempt to make incisions at or around bite sites, or to use tourniquets, as either treatment may be more destructive than the envenomation itself.
Any bite from a rattlesnake should be regarded as a life-threatening medical emergency that requires immediate hospital treatment from trained professionals.
Me:
It seems to me that two days from the trailhead especially solo is in the area of 'there's no good answer'. If you lie down and wait to see what will happen you could end up dead or loose a limb. If you hike out you could end up dead or loose a limb.
But if you hike out the medics can save what's left of you assuming you do get out.
In an article on dogs getting bitten it gives four hours after the bite as the window for the antivenom to have any effect. I don't know if that window is the same for humans but I would suppose so.
A hiker would more than likely get bit below the knee. I cringe when I think about a two day hike after a venom laded bite.
Mike
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What Ken said is correct. Getting antivenom is everyone's main concern. I recently completed a Wilderness First Responder course with Wilderness Medical Associates. Here's the verbatim treatment from their field guide:
"Remove constrictive clothing, clean area, dress wound,
evacuate to facility with antivenom, walk if necessary"
"NO tourniquets, ice, or suction devices. Suction devices, even the more modern versions, have been shown to be ineffective and possibly harmful."
"It is also helpful for medical personnel if the progression of swelling is marked with a pen. Make a line at the top of the swelling at regular intervals. This information will be helpful in the decision to use antivenom and in deciding how much will be necessary"
Awesome photos of snakes in the previous posts.
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Steve C that is the creepiest picture I HAVE EVER SEEN!!!!!!OMG Now I am going to do a thorough sweep of the property this year
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Todd,
Was there any discussion on what to do if the victim is two days hike away from medical help? This seems to be the one point that lacks a clear answer.
The farthest away from "help" I've been and met a snake on the trail was by Rancheria Mountain before dropping down into Pleasant Valley in Yosemite which would be about 15 miles from the nearest radio, probably at either White Wolf or Hetch Hetchy. Misery either way even without a bite.
Mike
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Was there any discussion on what to do if the victim is two days hike away from medical help? Make a will.
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I found a 'snake pool' one time exploring in the Stanislaus NF.
Glaciated terrain with big sugar pines, typical open forest and I'm hiking along, see movement in an isolated pool of rain water.
(shaped and sized like giant kitchen sink)
And I see its full of snakes, their heads floating on the surface!
In the United States, humans experience about 8000 bites from
venomous snakes each year or about 23 a day.
Of those, an average of 12 per year, less than 1%, die from venom.
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The ONLY thing that has any positive effect, is the administration of anti-venom. So, upon getting a bite, the only factor within control of the victim's party, is getting them to a hospital, other than removing constrictive clothing, rings, etc.
It may mean leaving them, while hiking for help. I'd do so near water.
There is NO first aid in the field that is of any help, other than removing constricting things such as rings.
The ONLY definite treatment is antivenom. The only thing to do is to get the victim to medical care. Walking out is a GOOD idea.
So Ken, if I am solo and two days off trail from the road and haven't seen anyone in those two days, should I just walk the two days back to the road? And, anything new on the Sawyer extractor (used without cutting of course)? Bill, I'd say start walking. Probably a good idea to stop for five minutes to seriously make a plan. You might, for example, have the option to hike in the other direction to a busy trail, like the JMT, where someone can attend you and someone can go for help. Sawyer results very disappointing. Essentially no effect.
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Both Paragraphs are from Wikipedia:
#1
Untreated rattlesnake bites, especially from larger species, are very often fatal. However, antivenom, when applied in time, reduces the death rate to less than 4%. It is estimated that between 7,000 and 8,000 people are bitten by venomous snakes in the United States each year, and about five of those die.[2] About 72% of those bitten by rattlesnakes are male.[3]
#2
First aid
When a bite occurs, the amount of venom injected cannot be gauged easily. Symptoms and swelling may occur quickly, and may cause death easily but in some cases hours may pass before serious effects appear.
Experienced health workers typically gauge envenomation in stages ranging from 0, when there is no evident venom, to 5, when there is a life-threatening amount of venom present. The stages reflect the amount of bruising and swelling around the fang marks and the speed with which that bruising and swelling progresses. In more severe envenomation cases (stage 4 or 5) there may also be proximal symptoms, such as lip-tingling, dizziness, bleeding, vomiting, or shock. Difficulty breathing, paralysis, drooling, and massive haemorrhaging are also common symptoms.
Quick medical attention is critical, and treatment typically requires antivenin/antivenom to block the tissue destruction, nerve effects, and blood-clotting disorders common with rattlesnake venom. Most medical experts recommend keeping the area of the bite below the level of the heart. It is important to keep a snake bite victim calm in order to avoid elevating their heart rate and accelerating the circulation of venom within the body. Untrained individuals should not attempt to make incisions at or around bite sites, or to use tourniquets, as either treatment may be more destructive than the envenomation itself.
Any bite from a rattlesnake should be regarded as a life-threatening medical emergency that requires immediate hospital treatment from trained professionals.
Me:
It seems to me that two days from the trailhead especially solo is in the area of 'there's no good answer'. If you lie down and wait to see what will happen you could end up dead or loose a limb. If you hike out you could end up dead or loose a limb.
But if you hike out the medics can save what's left of you assuming you do get out.
In an article on dogs getting bitten it gives four hours after the bite as the window for the antivenom to have any effect. I don't know if that window is the same for humans but I would suppose so.
A hiker would more than likely get bit below the knee. I cringe when I think about a two day hike after a venom laded bite.
Mike, and others, I would caution about using Wikipedia as an authority for medical info.....sometimes it is spot on, and some times not so much. It is not a primary source, so you need to know what is being quoted or cited, and often you don't know. The biggest issue is that med info outdates rapidly, but it lives forever on the internet. This place is actually the top spot in the western US, perhaps all of the US. It is the place that all the rest of us would call. The have a fellowship in evenomation, the only one I know of. Dr Bush is one of the absolute experts, and is the doc in the videos: http://lomalindahealth.org/medical-cente...m-er/index.htmlhttp://dsc.discovery.com/videos/i-was-bitten-rattlesnake-bite-recovery.htmlhttp://dsc.discovery.com/videos/i-was-bitten-rattlesnake-compartment-syndrome.html
Last edited by Ken; 03/09/10 08:25 AM. Reason: added videos
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A friend of mine took a picture of a "Mojave Green," which ended up on the front (or other section) page of the local Ridgecrest newspaper a number of years ago. He told me that that species had two types of toxin, one for which you generally won't find an antivenom - therefore a high possibility of death. They are around from Ridgecrest to Lake Isabella area. This was years ago - anyone know if there is now an antivenom for both, or how accurate (or not) my information/memory are. Thanks, Tony B.
The brain is a wonderful organ; it starts working the moment you get up in the morning, and does not stop until you get to the office. Robert Frost
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I had never heard of needing different antivenin (a myth)for different rattlers till I read an article this morning from out local paper (Tucson, AZ): • Don't increase your risk by trying to kill or capture the snake. "It's a myth that you need to know the type of rattlesnake and bring it to the emergency room," Babb says. "All rattlesnake bites are treated with the same antivenin." The article is here: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/article_19aea33d-d9a9-51d0-93e4-286a788df3d6.html
Last edited by oohikeroo; 03/09/10 08:16 PM.
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As I remember the class discussions, there was no 'clear answer' to that one. I guess, and I am not trying to be a smart ... here, that if one is two days away and solo, one ought to try and make it back faster than that. Realize you're in a serious situation and do everything possible to keep moving toward help.
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Way before I hiked, I used to Field Trial German Shorthairs and I had two dogs bitten by rattlers. One was by a Mojave Green up in the Palmdale area. She was given several doses of anti venom as I recall. At the time (30 years ago) The vet did tell me there was not an anti venom for Mojave Greens, but they gave her some type of anti venom. When she got out of the vets, she walked with stiff legs for days.
My other dog was named Candy. She was actually in a Field Trial competition down at the Marine base in Pendleton. She went on point as if there was a bird. Not sure exactly what happend, but there was lots of movement and she came away with a snake bite on her tongue. She died of asphyxiation because her tongue swelled.
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