Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board PCT - danger in theTehachapi's

The problem is, lands set aside for OHV use apparently are not enough for some people.

Hi Ever notice it's always those other people causing problems? Doug

Well, Tracie, I don't think this was actually a thread about mining operations, or I'm sure you'd find a lot of sentiment about that, as well. How about them WagBags?

I am not sure what the NRA has to do with the illegal trespass onto federal protected land (what I think was one of the themes of this thead), but you introduced the issue of guns into the thread, and I assume that you did that for some clear (although not to me) reason.

The statement about the result of ORV traversing the land, any land, that is not a road seems pretty apparent, barring rock routes (which are rarely totally rock). The site may be ok, but there sure as heck are tracks in and out. I won't say that I am happy about destruction of native land, turning it into a dust basin, but I am willing to allow that it is a recreation that people are entitled to---if they stick to the areas where it is allowed.

When those people intrude into federally protected lands, particularly wilderness, I think I'd agree with the previous poster who suggested a "confiscation" and "forfeit" policy.

Of course, if I were an officer approaching a vehicle with NRA stickers, I'd use a "felony stop" approach, particularly with the probable cause that has been created.

For a civilian, the concept of people in ORV that are trespassing leaves few options. I'd imagine the spikes are a response to that, as inappropriate as that is, also a crime.

It catches innocents, such as Richard, and that is a shame.

Felony stop for NRA stickers! Classic. What if I also decide to start wearing a burka (sp?). Wonder if I'd even make it out of my ORV before getting gunned down by the vigilantes?

It's been my experience that what my vehicle is "wearing" has a large impact on others perception of me. Many states have options for veteran plates for those who served during conflicts. I can tell you from personal experience that if you have those on your car/truck, and get stopped for a traffic infraction, that those plates, coupled with a polite and respectful attitude towards the officer in question will more often result in a warning rather than a ticket.

If you want to be armed, then do so. It's a protected right under our Constitition. When you advertise the fact the fact that you may be armed/are armed via an NRA sticker, then others may perceive that as a swagger, and you may become a target. And from a personal safety point of view - to deliberately make yourself a target is, well, dumb.

Tracie - you can argue till you're blue in the face that an NRA sticker should not mean a felony stop, but doing so would ignore basic human psychology.

Ken [/quote]
You can undertand why someone would set tire traps if that is what they are dealing with. [/quote]

Listen to what your saying here Ken
I've been following this so Ken with what your stating here is you could see the other side being ok setting traps. So I guess then it would be OK with you if someone jumped the people doing this and had some backwoods justice.
wrongs don't make a right.
I also have a jeep and go out to OHV trails. I agree there are idiots out there that cause issues. You can't close everything for the few who cause trouble.
We drag out trash from from bottles to gun shells to couches on our trips.

I don't think the OHV crowd threw out the couches.
We're going clean up last chance canyon shortly due to it's becoming a land fill.

Ken you just like to stir the pot, it's real easy to see that with the statements you said. It's all talk and no action.
Bye Ken

Trail bud - my reading of Ken's posts indicates he understands why people set trail traps for illegal OHV usage.

But, he's made it clear - at least to me - that he doesn't support or condone trail traps. There's a big difference.

You can undertand why someone would set tire traps if that is what they are dealing with. [/quote]

Listen to what your saying here Ken
I've been following this so Ken with what your stating here is you could see the other side being ok setting traps. So I guess then it would be OK with you if someone jumped the people doing this and had some backwoods justice.
wrongs don't make a right.
I also have a jeep and go out to OHV trails. I agree there are idiots out there that cause issues. You can't close everything for the few who cause trouble.
We drag out trash from from bottles to gun shells to couches on our trips.

I don't think the OHV crowd threw out the couches.
We're going clean up last chance canyon shortly due to it's becoming a land fill.

Ken you just like to stir the pot, it's real easy to see that with the statements you said. It's all talk and no action.
Bye Ken
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Well, if you alter what I say, by quoting PART of what I post, you can have me saying almost anything.

What I am trying to do, is to understand the mindset of those things that I think are wrong, and why. If the things that are generating the violent (and I think tire traps fall into the violent category, destruction of property) are not addressed, then the same thing will continue to happen, or escalate into something a lot more tragic than punctured tires.

These lands belong to all of us, and we have to reasonably share them. We have to protect them, and not abuse them. When things start to go wrong, we (the community) had better fix the problems, or something will be imposed that none of us will like.

"It's all talk and no action."

I dunno. I seem to have spent all my summers for years building/repairing trails or volunteering as a wilderness ranger.
Feel free to come out on the trail and stand around talking....:)

Maybe a little melodramatic, but I had thoughts of one scene from a WWII movie I watched a while ago where the underground fighters strung a piano wire across the road, and you know what happened to the next german soldier that rode by...

I think a lot of the destruction that's been going on "recently" is due to the addition of more wilderness to what a lot of off-roaders considered to be "giving up too much already."

Rules are rules though.

That wire fence isn't going to last very long though. Not without more of a LEO presence.

Maybe if the solar project out by Inyokern went forward, they could have run a charge out to the fence to electrify it.

Listen to what your saying here Ken
I've been following this so Ken with what your stating here is you could see the other side being ok setting traps. So I guess then it would be OK with you if someone jumped the people doing this and had some backwoods justice.
wrongs don't make a right.
I also have a jeep and go out to OHV trails. I agree there are idiots out there that cause issues. You can't close everything for the few who cause trouble.
We drag out trash from from bottles to gun shells to couches on our trips.

I don't think the OHV crowd threw out the couches.
We're going clean up last chance canyon shortly due to it's becoming a land fill.

Ken you just like to stir the pot, it's real easy to see that with the statements you said. It's all talk and no action.
Bye Ken
[/quote]
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-----------------------------------
Well, if you alter what I say, by quoting PART of what I post, you can have me saying almost anything.

What I am trying to do, is to understand the mindset of those things that I think are wrong, and why. If the things that are generating the violent (and I think tire traps fall into the violent category, destruction of property) are not addressed, then the same thing will continue to happen, or escalate into something a lot more tragic than punctured tires.

These lands belong to all of us, and we have to reasonably share them. We have to protect them, and not abuse them. When things start to go wrong, we (the community) had better fix the problems, or something will be imposed that none of us will like.

"It's all talk and no action."

I dunno. I seem to have spent all my summers for years building/repairing trails or volunteering as a wilderness ranger.
Feel free to come out on the trail and stand around talking....:)
[/quote]


Ken you get as frustrated as everyone else when you see the land tore up by illegal acts.
You'll never understand the mindset of someone who does this stuff because of the way you appreciate the wilderness. You don't think like them. I'm the same way Ken, but don't preach your view of having every off road vehicle baned. You know that will ever happen. And again your stirring the pot when you say something like this.
There has to be a way, but it takes money. I think if a few of the $2000.00 tickets were issued to ones doing the damage and it made the news that could go a long way.
Otherwise more of the trails/areas will end up closing, which would really suck.

I don't accept your first premise. I think that we all think in similar ways, but are influenced by different life experiences. I think we'd all be a lot better off if we tried to understand one another a lot more. The same was said about the two sides in No. Ireland, and yet, we have peace in our time.

I don't know where you got the idea that I want every off-road vehicle banned? That is NOT my view. I want them out of the places where they are illegal.

As to whether they cause more resource damage to land, I can't quite understand how that is controversial, once one has seen 30 year old tire tracks. But I think containing this damage is reasonable.

As for your suggestion of a large fine, I'm in agreement, although I think confiscation is much easier, faster, and hits an offender psychologically much harder.

I'm OK with offroad vehicles as long as they stay in the designated areas----I've got a bigger issue with horse usage on the trails.
If you don't think this is an issue, get on the trails around Yosemite and see the damage---one pack of horses trudging along the trail probably does more damage than 1000 hikers on foot do. And I don't see any outrage from the horse usage. It drives me crazy. Not only are the trails torn up, but there is dust everywhere for 10 minutes after a horse train comes through, plus horse crap EVERYWHERE. Man, I hate them on the hiking trails.
And most of them are there so rich lazy people can enjoy the High Sierra Camps at their leisure. My theory is, if you can't hike it, you don't deserve to be out in the backcountry!
Leave the horses to private property!!!

I've posted a number of times that I think the horses in the Sierra (and probably elsewhere) should have to wear the same butt bags that the horses in Central Park have to wear. Not advocating "Pack It Out" for them, but at least get the $!@% off of the trails!

On another note: guess what the mechanic found in the left-rear tire of my car?

Anyone want to give me advice on a ...

You can see a section of the new wire fence behind these three signs.

Interesting that about a hundred yards away, there is a gully that is not fenced. No need to cut anything if you want to ride up and around to the road. (Of course, I'm only tempted, I'd never do it.)

BTW, if you don't know, that John Backus Peak with Carl Heller Rocks below.

The slopes up between to two features usually put on a spectacular wildflower show. Bummer that it's such a long walk in.

I am confused. Who do you guys think laid the spikes there ?

Then you are hanging out on the wrong forums. This comes up all the time on a number of hiking forums.

What eventually happens in all of these discussions is a realization that all of these trail systems were created specifically for hikers AND horses, and were done with huge support from the equestrian folks, who did a lot of the work, and continue to do a lot of the trail work, today. It's not like horses were introduced around 1940, they were used by native americans, so there is a long history there.



I'm not sure that typifying the users is a particularly useful exercise: not only are you likely wrong, but it certainly doesn't work towards any sort of compromise.

My experience is that the people who go on horses, are people who love the horse culture, and being around them.

As to your theory, my experience as a volunteer wilderness ranger has been that there are many people who access the backcountry who could not otherwise. For example, I find it disingenuous that a severely disabled veteran should be denied access, "because he doesn't deserve it." He certainly "deserves" it more than me, I'd say.

Someone is now messing with the PCT signs.

I was tempted to backtrack for the motocycle...