Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Camping

Premise #1: a dayhike permit is good for the entire 24 hours of the day marked on it.

Premise #2: you could stop and sleep for a while during a dayhike, assuming you had the time.

Result(?): if you have back-to-back dayhike permits, you have the equivalent of an overnight permit.

Is this right?

A day hiking permit is good for the full 24 hours, starting at midnight at the trailhead.

You can rest and sleep anytime you want. I figure it is not hard to tell if you are dayhiking or backpacking. If you are carrying a sleeping bag, pad and pillow and cooking gear, it will sure look like you are backpacking.

Two back to back day hiking permits doesn't add up to an overnight permit. But I think I see where you are going with this. Have two back to back permits and take the full two days. Seems to work except if you carry overnight gear, you are actually backpacking.

But the reality is this. If you start on one at midnight on your permit day and finish a little late (like midnight to 3:00 am), it seems reasonable the FS personal would give you a little break. But if your day hiking permit is for Tuesday and you are coming down the trail Wednesday at noon, I wouldn't expect them to be as forgiving.

I think it would come down to whether there is something unique to "camping" that you get with an overnight permit that you don't also get with a dayhike permit.

To modify your example only slightly, let's say you leave at 12:01 with your tent, sleeping bag, etc. (Let's assume for the moment you're in excellent shape and somewhat eccentric.) You make great time and set up camp at 2-ish, waking up at sunrise to go up to the summit and descend before 11:59 p.m. Have you done something that you're not supposed to do? Now if you have back-to-back dayhike permits...

From a management perspective, this scenario would actually mean one less person on the trail, so arguably less of an impact, though it would mean one more camper.

It seems to me you would have trouble with the forest service personal if you were camping out with your day permit, even if you stayed within the 24 hours.

The creative approach is a big stretch of the rules, no matter how you slice it.

Hi We get this question every year , carry camping gear and you will be turned back on a day permit. Thanks Doug

The Forest Service will not issue back-to-back day hike permits for the very reason that people have tried to convert them into an overnight stay.

Camping does not necessarily mean that you have a tent, sleeping bag, etc. If a ranger sees you laying on the ground asleep, he could interpret that as "camping." As a poster in another year put it, it has something to do with intent to occupy.

Also, you cannot start your day hike before midnight. Yes, I know that the section from the Portal to Lone Pine Lake is not part of the Whitney Zone. I had a conversation at the Lone Pine Ranger Station about early starts where you do not hit the Whitney Zone until midnight. The rangers position is that (1) a hike starts at the trailhead and (2) you can't start hiking until midnight.

I'm not saying that the Forest Service position is reasonable. It's just that this topic crops up every few years and that has been their response in the past.

I would imagine that since the brochure calls it a "trailhead quota," and the trailhead starts before the Whitney zone, that's why you can't start before midnight.

As for the original question, OK, I get that they turn you around if you show up for a dayhike with camping gear - just can't admit to understanding why, if you have the right to be there for 48 hours straight. Must be something in the difference between a "wilderness permit" and a "dayhike permit."

I think you might have missed the part about being issued consecutive dayhike permit at the same time. I don't like to say never but it's a good bet that applies here.

Richard's note about where you can start is meant to add to the conmtrols on the number of people entering the zone per day. It very easily could be the actual zone boundary but it would be harder to enforce and monitor.

Does anyone know what the fine is for being on a trail without a permit? Whitney or any others.

From what we have read in the past the fine can be up to the forest service person, with a $100 -$200 range being mentioned. I suppose it is discretionary, but it is a federal fine if imposed.

The worst part would not be the fine, but being turned around half way up the mountain. It is certainly not as fun being there, always looking over your shoulder or around the next corner. There is still time to get in on a day hiking permit.

"Does anyone know what the fine is for being on a trail without a permit? Whitney or any others. "

Isn't it something like $500 per person per day, escort from the mountain, a ticket for the cost of the Ranger time for the escort, *****listing from any permits in the Sierra?

I saw someone being turned around and fined $250 a couple of years ago for being on the main trail with the wrong permit. If the fine has changed since then it is sure to be higher.

What I recall from ~2 years ago is that the per-person fine was $100 - 150 for day hikers, and $200 - 250 for overnighters. This is for being up there without a permit, or having a permit for a certain day but entering on another. They fine the group leader, so if you can talk someone else into leading the trip,...

I remember Doug telling a story about a group of five women from out of state who had a valid multiday permit, but decided innocently to go up a day early (or late, I forgot which). The leader was very surprised and unhappy to be hit with a fine of over $1000, on top of the expense and time involved in flying out here and being turned back only a few miles into their climb.

I have thought a lot about different legitimate ways to get in a 2-day visit on a day permit, and none seem feasible. I even thought that if I started on day 1 and kept hiking nonstop through the night into day 2, it might be OK because I wasn't "camping." The reason it and other ideas fail is the definition in 36 C.F.R. §261.2: "Camping means the temporary use of National Forest System lands for the purpose of overnight occupancy without a permanently-fixed structure." I believe they interpret "occupancy" as simply just being there.

Potential fine? According to U.S.C. 551: "Violation is punishable by a fine of not more than $5000 or imprisonment for not more than 6 months, or both." So we should feel lucky if we only get fined a few hundred dollars. Better yet, try to follow the rules.

(C.F.R. = Code of Federal Regulations; U.S.C. = United States Code)

-----

From my understanding, the interpretations above by LoveTheSierras, Doug Sr, and Richard are all correct.

One more comment: An Inyo NF ranger friend of mine told me that, technically, you don't need a permit until you pass the Wilderness Boundary sign. From a practical point of view, that means the trailhead, of course. But one year there was a ranger about 200 yards up the Whitney Trail, sitting in a lawn chair and checking permits. I decided not to have a discussion with him, giving him the benefit of doing a good deed: turning people without permits back before they got too far along (and also saving them a big fine!)

-----

A few years back, Inyo NF recognized that some people like to do "full moon hikes." These typically start at sunset and end the next morning. They are like day hikes in that they last only 12 hours or so, but they are like overnights because they span two calendar days. Inyo made the sensible decision to issue you a day permit for day 1 (your entry day), with a full moon stamp. So if you were stopped by a ranger on day 2, you were OK. I haven't heard of this special permit lately, but I suspect they still have a procedure for it if you ask.