Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board To Crampon or Not to Crampon?

I just want to throw my thought process out there and see what people think. I'm going up the Main Trail on an overnight trip on June 25th.

I have a lot of experience in hiking in summer snow and even (foolishly) standing glissade, but I never used trekking poles, much less ice ax or crampons. Call it the impetuousness of my youth. That being said, in the places I did this, I was never in any danger of sliding more than a hundred feet or falling into anything more dangerous than an icy stream. From the recent pictures I see that this is not true at Whitney and the danger is much greater.

Now I'm a little older and possibly a little wiser from reading this board the last two months. To make a long story short, the pictures and advice you've all given have convinced me to rent an ice ax for my trip and practice self arrest on the way up. Now, from what I've read on the internet, the use of an ice ax seems pretty common sense as long as you hold it right and don't stab yourself. The trick just seems to be to practice it enough so that it comes naturally in an emergency situation.

Crampons, on the other hand, seem to require a lot of counter-intuitive skills, like changing the way you walk, lifting your feet in a slide, etc.

My impression is that if I carry an ice ax, even as a novice, I'll be increasing my safety, but if I use crampons as a novice, I'll be increasing the likelihood of injuring myself by rolling my ankle, or catching my other leg with a spike. All of which seem more likely than icy conditions that would make climbing without crampons impossible.

Any thoughts or advice? Please keep in mind that I recognize that pictures and accounts don't predict conditions on the day of my hike. I'm going to re-assess the situation when I get there and will turn back if I feel I'm in over my head. Also, I will be sticking to the main trail as much as possible all the way to trail camp.

There are levels of safety.

The safest thing is to have crampons & an ice axe and have the experience to know how to use them.

Next safest is to consider an alternative like Yaktrax and take an ice axe. The ice axe, with some practice, can really make a huge difference.

Be careful about glissading until you get the hang of it.

Groups are divided about the crampon/ ice axe issue even know. Some feel they are necessary. Some say you could do without them. That probably represents how comfortable they are on the snow.

I am tagging along with a group the end of June myself. We are not taking crampons or ice axes, but are considering Yaktrax.

Go to www.rei.com and search for "yaktrax."

www.Campmor.com also has yaktrax

<a href="http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=12500226&productId=81380">Yaktrax</a>

As it gets closer, we will make the final decision on adding an ice axe for extra safety.

Josh,

In my opinion there's a lot more you need to know about using an ice axe than crampons. With crampons you just strap em on and go. I can't say I walk much differently with them on. I just don't really think about them.

With the ice axe however you need to know the 4 positions for self arrest. This isn't something you want to figure out when you're in a death slide down the mountain. Training and practice are necessary. If nothing else, get the book "<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898868289/qid=1118864284/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-3558674-4504915?v=glance&s=books&n=507846">Freedom of the Hills</a>" and read the chapter on self arrest. If you fall you will be in one of four different positions and you need to be able to arrest from them all. Arresting from a downhill slide while your head is downhill and you're on your back is the trickiest one.

And you are right, the conditions really do dictate what you will need. Can you get away without crampons? Probably (unless it's real icy). In this case you don't have to worry about catching a crampon in a slide. However, the crampons might very well prevent a slide in the first place. Thus, unless you know for sure it's best to bring both. You can always choose not to put the crampons on. If you've never tried on crampons you'll probably find that they're the best things since sliced bread. They really make a huge difference.

I'm not sure how effective those Yaktraxs are but I wouldn't rule out crampons. I think the Yaktrax are intended more for fairly level surfaces. They would probably be good on the snowy/icy parts of the main trail but probably wouldn't be very effective on a steeper slope.

-Rick

I think Rick is correct about the crampons. I don't remember a steep learning curve with them. While it is true you have spikes on your feet and you have to use some common sense, they are not really hard to use. I have been with many hikers new to crampons and they have never had that much trouble getting used to them.

1) While wearing them don't step on the other foot.

2) While wearing them don't stick the spikes into your other leg.

3) Be carefull walking with them over rocks and the like. That is when you can twist your ankle. Walking on snow isn't the problem.

4) They should be off when glissading so the crampons don't catch on things while you are sliding down.

5) Make sure they dig in enough to give you good grip. This is easy if the snow is a little firm and icy but more difficult if the snow is mushy.

Walking with them on comes in three ways.

1) Kicking the toe straight in while you are walking straight up the hill
2) Feet turned out 45 degrees. This is like the heringbone if you were walking uphill with skis on.
3) Walking uphill one foot over the other. This is for variation if your side is facing uphill.

You will never get the hang of them if you don't ever use them.

Pretty good stuff posted, with a few exceptions.

TomC said "4) They should be off when glissading so the crampons don't catch on things while you are sliding down."

Close, but no cigar. Change it to "They SHALL be off when glissading". It's a legal term. Should can have exceptions, Shall doesn't. Never wear crampons when you are intentionally planning on sliding on the snow.

For that matter, if you do some mountaineering research, you will find that glissading is VERY high on the list of causes for a lot of accidents. Remember a glissade is an "controlled slide". More accurately, it is a "semi-controlled slide". Under the right conditions and training, it's a blast and quick. Under the wrong conditions and training it's a disaster.

That being said, both the ice axe and crampons need practice to be used properly. Yes, they are simple tools, but you need to know how to use them properly to prevent problems.

If you don't have any ice axe experience and refuse to be trained, then grab a book (already mentioned) and then practce the techniques WAY before you need them.

Same thing for crampons. Find some hard snow, practice putting them on (and off of course) then practice walking around. Learning how to properly roll your ankles to walk "french technique" up hills is very important and should be practiced long before needed.

Get a good feel for how you like taveling with a crampon and ice axe before you need it.

All this being said. My personal feeling is that you can pick up general ice axe use from a book and practice. However crampon use should be learned by being instructed.

You have to take with you what make you feel comfortable, be it poles, ice axe or crampons. With that said you can only travel as far as you feel you can descend safely on your return. Personally, I wouldn't come down the chute without an ice axe. I would want the ability to self belay or arrest something you can't do without an axe.

Josh,

If you plan to go up the chute before 8:00 AM, most people are leaving from trail camp with crampons on at 5:30 AM to 6:30 AM, the snow will have a hard ice crust over it, and you will slip without crampons.

Same is true if you are going down from trail camp in the early morning. It will be icey and crampons will be useful. We had a party of eight go down, and one person did not use crampons, and he slipped here and there.

This is assuming the the sun is out and there is little wind. With cloud cover and wind it could be icey all morning long.

Paul

All of my gear is in storage in Colorado, so I am going without on June 26th for a one day. I have climbed many 14ers in Colorado in Spring without either and only wearing my nike trail runners. I too used to be invincible.

One does not go without the other. The walking axe is the most useful tool ever invented. It is used for much more than just self arrest on a climb, but if your gonna really need it, likely you'll need crampons too.

As long as you are careful, you should be fine with them. Walk like you are a cowboy in a duel and you should be fine, especially from ripping your pant leg (that is more of a vertical/water ice problem) and where you will need them you'll be walking slow enough it won't be a problem. Cowboys angle their feet out a bit and that will not allow you too roll your ankle plus give you more teeth gripping the snow. After the first few times tripping, you'll pick up your feet, I assure you. If they are new, walk around on rock to dull them up. Sharp crampons suck, especially for newbies. Also, you need to be sure, they fit your boots right. Nothing more unsafe then a loose crampon that is put on half-assed.
Forget the Yaktrax altogether, they won't help where you will need crampons. PLEASE DON'T FORGET TO TAKE THEM OFF WHEN GLISSADING. That is how people get hurt and break things. I repeat take them off if you are going to gliassade and remember, the slicker the material you wear, the faster you will go. Fabric choice can keep you from sliding to your death too. Keep that in mind. I would highly suggest Schoeller. That is the fabric of choice for working guides.
Lastly, if you don't have Freedom of the Hills, get it and read it like your bible. It was my bible for many years while living and working in the Colorado mountains climbing 14ers. Between that and anything ever written by Lou Whitaker, I have managed safely climb peaks for over a decade.

Good luck and I'll see you on the summit.

oops, pathetic...I dissed my own idol, although Whitaker's crew taught me alot on Rainier.

I meant anything ever written by Lou Dawson. He is my personal hero.

Geez, your body isn't the only thing that gets old.

As Mountain said, an ice axe is more that just a self arrest tool. It is fantastic for probing snown and ice. I used it like a cane at times, especially over the rocks while walking around the patches of snow.

One of the great skills I learned on our trip is reading ice and snow. For example there a numerous melting snow brigdes up there now. You can listen to the running water under them, and you can use you ice axe to probe it for stability, and then decide to walk around or over it.

How to walk over sun spot in the snow tranversing a slope with the ice axe in your hand on the high side give you great confidence while hiking in a snow field.



Paul

While an ice axe is normally thought of for self-arrest on ice, I used it on Mt Baden Powell a couple weeks ago on very soft snow. At one point on a very steep slope the snow gave way under both my feet. I instantly leaned on the axe and it sunk all the way in, with my hanging from it with both hands until I could kick new steps and continue on.

Interesting thing about snow. When it softens up during the day crampons are not as helpful. Sometimes there is an icy layer underneath with poses a risk.

I would be divided on the need for crampons in a week or two. You might need them but then again you might not. That is hard to predict and probably depends more on what time of day you are traveling.

As for the breakin time. If you choose you could bring them along and try them out on a few smaller hills first. That way you will be more comfortable with them when you get on the big hill above trail camp.

Getting them straped on tight is half the battle.