Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Mule poop on trail - wag bags?

Just came back from a few days in the Cottonwood Pass/Soldier Lakes area. It was my first time in that area and I was really struck with how beautiful everything is over there. One major unpleasant aspect of the trip was the amount of mule poop on the trails. I've complained in the past about the increase in trash on the main Whitney trail, but no more! A few pieces of someone's trash is nothing compared to having to smell and walk through what mules leave. Does anyone know if the owners of the pack station have to do any type of clean up or trail restoration? If not, they should. Perhaps mule wag bags?

We hikers aren't allowed to leave our poop on the trail. Even if we were able to, the amount of our poop would not come close to a mule's. I don't mind using a wag bag and packing out my poop, but it seems pointless in comparison to what is left by the pack stations. Has anyone else felt this way, or am I just a big whinner who is maybe just a little jealous of people being able to have mules carry all their stuff?

A few years ago, when I was hiking out to Cottonwood Lakes, I saw a group of Rangers carrying shovels. I walked with them for a while and finally saw why they had them...to "throw" the horse poop off of the trail. I don't think it happens very often though.

An idea might be to make the pack stations use the same type of device they use on the horses in Central Park. Very little poop seems to miss the bag out there.

It's kind of nasty on areas like that where traditional High Sierra pack trips are still allowed. The mule dung gets dried out and ground into dust that you end up breathing.

Adrian

Wow, I am glad to see that someone else has had the same observation on this issue. I just returned from several days on the John Muir Trail. Before the trip I spent much time reviewing various websites and doing lots of research on "Leave No Trace". I wanted to make sure I left no trace..... What a joke!

During the trip I saw >100 mules and in all cases I was the one that yielded the right of way. Worse yet was the issue of marching through the endless piles of mule dung. I would guess that these pack trip operators make lots of money from hikers that want to experience the great outdoors (but don't want to carry their own stuff!).

Worse than the thousands of mule dung dropping piles is the obvious damage these creatues cause to the trail. Years of busy human use on a trail will not equal the damage caused by a few mules each day - let alone the high rate of use actually seen on the trail.

I am all for emergency use of mules, trail maintenance, ranger use, and some type of mule access for hikers with limited ability...... but the apparent profit-based commercial use of government land is out of control. I wish the use were more tightly controlled, because it is currently out of control.

A mandatory mule wag bag requirement would only take care of part of the problem. The better answer would be a sharp reduction in the allowbale mule traffic on these trails.

Well said! I never thought about breathing the dust, now I'm really grossed out! I never saw a ranger shoveling the dung off the trail - that must be an extremely unpleasant task. When I was a kid I considered pursuing a career as a forest ranger. I would have nixed the idea much sooner if I had known shoveling mule poop was part of the job description!

Richard, that's interesting to know that there is such a device available to capture the poop. The people that make the decisions to allow pack trains to use the trails obviously don't hike on them, or else those devices would be implemented. I know I left no trace except footprints on my trip. Too bad the pack trains negated my efforts.

I agree with Adrian that breathing the dust is unpleasant, but apparently we all survive.

Hiker Neil and Whitney, be careful what you ask for -- that is the same cry that has left the Sierra trails with what I consider extreme quota limits (with the exception of the MMWT).

If you will check the regulations, the pack stations also have limits on the numbers of people they can carry into the mountains.

I would prefer paying a higher fee for trail use to cover the cost of more rangers and trail crews, rather than continue to endure the current situation where most trails have a quota of 10 people per day.

I have looked at this from both sides - I do a lot of backpacking, but I have also done a couple horsepacking trips with our scout troop. I know there is need for both types of access. But I must admit that the pack animals have a significant impact on trail quality. And I think that some of the folks I have seen with the pack trains (people who are obviously out of place in the backcountry, out of shape, lazy, and paying for top-dollar trips where the packers do all the cooking and setup for them) do not belong in the wilderness. I classify them with the people who drive huge RVs into mountain campsites and turn on the satellite TV and slam a case or two - they should just stay home.

I think horsepackers should pay permit fees that truly reflect the cost of maintaining the trails they ride. In 2003 I was going over Donohue Pass, and a pack train of at least 10 horses and 15 mules passed us. On the descent into Lyell Fork, it looked like a bulldozer had driven through.

I might be getting a little off topic here but to see the difference mules make to a trail, try the North Kaibab trail at Grand Canyon.

The top few miles are ankle deep in dust, loose rocks and plenty of the mules usual deposits. I realise there will be greater numbers of mule trips there than the Sierra but after the point where all the mule trips turn around it is a much more pleasant hike on a near perfect trail.

It might be fair to have pack stock users pay for trail maintenance proportional to their usage. And then we could have hikers start to do the same thing.

Of course it would only be fair to charge pack stock users for the level of mainenance that stock require, not those cute water crossings and stairways so endearing to the modern hiking effete.

It might be fair to put wag-bags on pack stock or worry about shoveling off trails. And then we could have the most dangerous disease vectors do the same on all trails, oh yes, that would be hikers. That would be not only fair, but logical.

I just looked through Norman Clyde's 'Closeups of the High Sierra'. Imagine my chagrin at discovering that the out of place, out of shape, lazy, top dollar paying first ascent party of the east face of Mount Whitney used horses to get their gear up Lone Pine Canyon to the start of their hike up the North Fork. Surely Norman Clyde shudders in shame. After all, that would only be fair.

Certainly, most of the human beings that have ever lived were born after the invention of indoor plumbing, still, most of them don't have it yet.

Dale B. Dalrymple
dbdimages.com

And how bout these funny looking mules I saw on the Bishop Pass trail last year ...



<a href="http://www.rickkent.net/ViewerPlus/viewphoto.asp?ID=56374"> [img]http://www.rickkent.net/ViewerPlus/sendbinarydb.aspx?ID=56374&width=400[/img]</a>

-Rick

My kids and I just did the north fork trail to temple crag on Labor Day. That trail has been torn up pretty bad by the mules. One dude had six of the suckers tied together and was moving pretty fast. The weight of these animals turns the trails into talc, and the poop is endless. Its a good idea to gather trash and take it out, sooo, we should probably bag the poop and return it to its owner.

Dave, that's an excellent idea! When I take my dog for a walk I pick up after it and bring the stuff home to throw out. Maybe the guys on the mules don't notice what is being left behind. Perhaps they'd stop and pick it up if we pointed it out to them....
I can envision what it would be like if everyone started reminding the pack trains of what they were leaving. We could carry little shovels and "help them out" by tossing the poop up to them (whether they wanted it or not) so they wouldn't have to get off their horse, mule, llama, or whatever to pick it up.
I'm kidding, of course. In a perfect world everyone would take responsibility for their actions. Unfortunately, the few that don't affect the majority of us who do.

Whitney

I'm glad you are really just kidding. It would be tragic to misuse a valued resource like dung.

Many high areas of the Sierra have fire restrictions because of a lack of fuel resources. Many areas of the world with long traditions of mountain living have adopted enlightened policies towards the use of dung. Just Google on 'yak', 'dung', and 'fuel' to see the recognition this issue gets.

It's good to hear reports of rangers with shovels helping to stockpile this resource.

I'm sure developing technology will enable the use of this resource. See:
http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves_listserv.repp.org/2005-November/002137.html
for an example or Google on 'dung-burning' and 'stove'.

Please don't suggest the misuse of this resource even in jest. And don't confuse the recycling of vegetarian mammalian dung with the trail wagging of the dog.

Dale B. Dalrymple
dbdimages.com

Just an idea,

Mabeye they could build theyre own trail and designate it to the four leg class.

OK Rocky

The next time you go on a long term, many miles in, heavy trail maintenance or log out crew,(if ever) make sure you carry all of the tools and equipment in yourself.

Ron