Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Water and Giardia around Mt. Whitney

The recent discussion between Kurt W and Bob R regarding water treatment brought to my attention a relatively new paper published in the Wilderness Medical Society journal WMS:  Evidence-Based Medicine in the Wilderness:  The Safety of Backcountry Water written by Thomas R. Welch, MD.

I would like to quote several highlights here.  The first part in the article identifies a highly publicized event in 1976 where a group of hikers apparently all became ill from a backpacking outing in Utah:
What the above is telling us is simply this:  Somebody didn't clean up after a nature call!

The article continues that the 1976 publication was followed within a few short years by an "explosion of concern about wilderness-water quality in general and giardiasis in particular."  and "was soon accompanied by a growing emphasis on and availability of water-treatment technology suitable for backcountry use."

I would urge everyone to read the article.  But if you don't have the time, then this is the main point:

If you are concerned about protecting yourself from intestinal infections, rather than worry about treating the water,
it is far more important for everyone in your party to diligently wash up before handling
food and utensils.  No amount of water treatment can replace proper personal hygiene.
A tiny bar of soap (or an ounce of camp suds) is a lot lighter to carry than a water filter.

Thanks for posting, that was a good article. Plus it gave me an answer I wanted to hear, that a water filter really isn't needed in a lot of areas.

Not only that, but come to think of it, I don't believe there has been a water study yet to find a large enough Giardia or Cryptosporidium concentration in the mountains to make anyone sick.  As the study says, you would need to drink 7 liters of water to get the minimum dose necessary to produce an infection.

What all this means is that the official Forest Service line that you should filter your water is incorrect.  What they should really be telling people is "Filter water if you like, but far more importantly, make sure nobody contaminates your food."

Based on the earlier discussion of this, and the info that was posted from
http://www.yosemite.org/naturenotes/Giardia.htm, I bought a nice metal cup with a biner clip that will be clipped to my pack for easy dipping into some of those great-looking, cold mountain streams.

As a kid we drank regularly from Colorado Rocky Mountain streams, using common sense of course, but with no ill effects, and when I moved to CA, we drank from the Sierra streams, unaware that it had become "dangerous" (again, with never any ill effects). Eventually we heard about the "danger" and quit doing that.

Thanks to the messages here, I can now look forward to that nice fresh icy, good-tasting water again; much appreciated.

(I'll still carry a filter and use it if there's any reason to think the water may not be OK, but dipping a cup in the creek will sure feel good 8^)

On the main trail i've bumped into a couple of rangers drinking straight from the creek. They say they've been doing it for a while and never been sick.

-lance

While I think it is generally safe to drink unfiltered water in the 'wild', you need to use some common sense. For example, if there are animals grazing in an area or people camping, you need to be sure that you are not drinking water downstream of where they have pooped. We had an outbreak of giardia in a remote part of Yellowstone last year when some backcountry hikers drank stream water near where some stock animals had been kept overnight. While the water there is usually safe, it needed filtering that particular day.

Sierra Sam brings up a point that I have been making all along: You always have to Drink Smart. In the Yellowstone case, the people may not have known about the specific animal presence, but they should have learned enough about the area beforehand to know that it was possible. Still, it should be clear by now that it is a conjectural leap to blame the Giardia outbreak on those stock animals, without testing the water those hikers drank. Especially when fecal contamination from their friends was much more likely.

Not Yellowstone, but Derlet and colleagues sampled fresh pack animal manure from over 186 miles of trail in Sequoia, Kings Canyon, and Yosemite National Parks. They found only one sample that contained Giardia, and no E coli O157:H7 or Salmonella. In another study, Johnson and colleagues sampled manure from 91 horses used in the backcountry of California. They found no Giardia or Cryptosporidium.

The Welch paper is from a particularly credible source. Thomas Welch, as you probably noticed, wrote it in the Journal of Wilderness and Environmental Medicine. Furthermore, this is not a "mere" paper submitted and accepted for publication, but an editorial.

Dr. Welch has been battling the wilderness water Giardia myth almost as long as I have, although he now addresses also the other suspect organisms. I found interesting his veiled suggestion that the water treatment companies have not exactly joined the battle.

His editorial concludes with: "The time has come...to apply evidence-based principles to discussions of backcountry hygiene. Such principles mandate a vigorous education campaign targeted on hand-washing, coupled with a corresponding de-emphasis on routine universal water treatment." I’ve been preaching this for years.

One minor point: Steve C refers to an article of mine that the Yosemite Association published. However, it is an older version. An updated version can be found in a number of places, such as the Boy Scouts of America and the Sierra Club. The bottom line is the same, but the supporting evidence is much stronger: the latest paper is 50% longer and has 66 references.

In my years of climbing, I estimate using my logbook that I have consumed as much Sierra water as is contained in the average-sized backyard swimming pool.* Untreated, and nary a hint of a symptom of Giardia.

People surely know where I stand, so I probably won't say any more on the matter. There are at least two things that are extremely hard to change: (1) people's opinions, fact-based or not; and (2) medical scientific findings.

*Edit: Make that a pretty small pool! 12' diameter and 3' deep is more like a big wading pool.

Bob you are correct.  You have stated your case very well.  You really can't argue against the science behind your points.  It is peoples perception that you can't argue with.  Even with an overwhelming fact based argument.  Most people don't base their opinions or argument based on fact or science.

Doug and I were having this discusion yesterday at the WPS.  The point I made is that when I was backpacking in the Sierras in the late 60's no one ever thought about or discussed purifying the mountain water.  In the early 70's we were constantly being told by hikers and Rangers that we should never drink any stream water without boiling or using iodine.  I had it ingrained into my head from those non-scientific based opinions that water in the Sierras was not safe to drink.  Today it is almost impossible for me to overcome the perception that Sierra water is safe to drink without purifying.  The water is pobably safe to drink but I will err on the side of caution and purify because I have it ingrained in my brain that the water has become contamenated regardless of what the scientific evidence says.  I have seen way too many ignorant hikers taking dumps near water sources to be able to overcome my perception.  That along with the Rangers warning us to boil all our water.  I am doomed to purify all mountain water.  Everyone will have to do what they are comfortable with.

Bob, something else you might not know:

Your literature has been a real boon to those of us who lead or teach others....having something that is so well written, available on so many credible sources, really allows people to consider that their view may be skewed. I've seen numerous instances of people coming out for their first backpack, paranoid about water...but over time, observing me and others not treating and surviving, finally make the leap to not treating.

I always tell people they should do what makes them comfortable, and bring up the topic from the standpoint of their being a controversy.

I really appreciate the service you've done the community.

Bob R., I'm sensing some uncertainty in your statements about the safety of Mt. Whitney water when you wrote, "Sierra Sam brings up a point that I have been making all along: You always have to Drink Smart." This seems to imply that Mt. Whitney water might be unsafe under certain conditions which the typical hiker may or may not know about.

My answer to your question is that the water up on Mt. Whitney is safe to drink unless it has been contaminated, so you need to be smart about getting your water from areas away/upstream from camping sites, etc.

Don't recall whether it's included in the paper (probably not), but Bob did a grading of the water source on the Main Trail (and MR, I think).

I'm not a poet and I can't quote much, but highest on my list is an athlete's favorite.

It's the first line to one of the earliest poems ever known, the First Pythian Ode (predecessor to the Olympian Odes) and the earliest comment known on athletic achievement:

"Best of all things is water."

And then it goes on for a couple hundred pages celebrating great athletes and warriors and such and I don't remember the rest.

If you've never gone au naturiel at the "Purest Water on the Planet" (a specific location ID'd by Bob R) on the MMWT, you've never had a drink in your life.

Which reminds me - hope Bob R has re-posted his water pictures...

I remember a few years ago Backpacker magazine did an experiment... sent several people out to various areas to test and just drink the water. (I tried a brief search but couldn't find the article.Maybe someone more resourceful at internet searching could find it.) Bottom line was very few of the subjects got sick, and it was suggested that maybe we're all a bit paranoid about water in the backcountry.

I still am. : ) I always filter. Just don't want a trip ruined by being sick.

Unfortunately, Backpacker Magazine articles don't seem to be on the www anywhere. There is a reference (#11) in the Thomas Welch paper to a December 2003 Backpacker article titled "What's in the water?" by Peter Jaret, pp45-66.

Does anyone have a copy of that issue?

On my last trip to the High Sierra 3 weeks ago for the first time I didn't carry my water filter. 8 Days after the trip I started to develop some stomach problems (nausea, loss of appetite and diarrhea). The symptoms didn't disappear within a weak and so I decided to see a doctor. Today the lab results came back, which confirmed that the problems are caused by giardia. The entire 3 days in the back country (Palisade area) I took water only at two locations: At Third Lake and from a tiny tarn 150 feet west of Gayley Camp. Of course there is no proof that I got it from the water, but next time I will probably bring my MSR filter again.

I have been using seat belts consistently for the past almost 30 years, but never really needed them. Nevertheless, I will continue to use them. I guess water treatment can be looked at in a similar way.

Kurt

Maybe these stories suggest that the best way to avoid contracting giardia is not to share utensils or food with others. Be entirely self-sufficient. Don't use a common cookpot. Don't use common bags of food. That way, if someone in your party isn't very hygienic, you won't be the one getting the unpleasant surprise.

Kurt W and I were with Kurt S on the Palisades trip. I (knock on wood) have not had any type of Giardia symptoms since that weekend a few wks ago. IDK about Kurt W, he was fine right before he left for Denali (May 25th). We all drank from the same water sources, but did not share utensils, etc. Kurt W was extremely hygienic in all his cooking, etc. I don't really recall anyone sharing food bags too (we all had our own snack bags). Who knows? Maybe Kurt S just was the unlucky one in the group to swallow the protozoan parasite from the water.? Hey Kurt S, maybe this explains why you didn't feel like eating anything when we all had dinner that night in Bishop or the next morning when we went climbing (I don't think altitude would have caused your anorexia by the time we were back down). Either way, good health to you! My luck would have it that I have another round of diarrhea on Denali next week like on MT Baker ~ grrrrrrrrreat! Thanks for sharing your experience. I've been eating raw garlic since you emailed me (good ol' Czech trick I learned from my dad).

Kurt, sorry to hear about your affliction.

Many of us on this board drink freely out of the Sierra streams and lakes, but drinking smart as possible. There have been times when I have not drunk smart, and paid the price, but never ill effects from Sierra water.

The medical reports I've read about Giardia show that victims would need to drink incredible amounts of High-Sierra water for enough Giardia to cause ill effects. Apparently, a single protozoa is not enough--you need a lot to get sick. Others on this board, especially Bob R, could verify this.

Third Lake and the Gayley Camp tarn are so high and pristine, it is amazing you got the bug. Sorry you got it.

Kurt, the only thing I can add is that the current thinking from the CDC is that symptoms usually occur 7 to 14 days after infection. Other sources have said 4 to 28 days. From your post, you were drinking that Palisades water on days -8 to -10. You have to think about what went into your mouth (water and other things) the few days to a couple of weeks before your trip, during your trip, and a few days after.

Your trip 8 to 10 days before symptoms is right in the prime period. I assume that everyone in your party used proper hygiene procedures—including serious hand sanitation after defecating. If that was not the case, further discussion here is pointless.

But if that was the case, you should certainly think of the water. If the water, the next question is how it got there. Small tarns are not particularly trustworthy because there is no flushing action as with a flowing stream. If something is deposited, it stays there for quite a while. On the other hand, there is very little mammalian life at 12,000' to worry about. (Marmots have not been implicated for Giardia, from what I have read. And birds can carry it, but not a variant that can infect humans.) Of course, it is possible that someone crapped nearby or in the water recently.

I don't know what else to say. If you got it on the trip, it could have been from the water or another way. Or you could have gotten it at home before or after the trip.

I have never said you can't get giardiasis from high Sierra water. I have only looked into the probabilities, and found them low. Extremely low or less low, depending on where you are and how attentive you are to "drinking smart."

In this case, as in all things, people have to consider the risks and consequences before deciding whether or not to take precautions.