Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Gear question

Wow, now you are going too far. I deleted an earlier post calling such a mind-set ignorant. REI offers 4 pages of packs of all sizes on their website. They offer a handful in stock in the store - mostly in size medium. They carry Granite Gear on the web site, but not in the store. So according to you, the consumer should buy an il-fitting, inappropriate pack simply because they got their torso measured?

And exactly what "employee time" do you get? That of a college student that maybe has used one or two packs in their life? Or some bro-brah making a little extra coin to fund his endless summer? The number of times I've heard poor and flat-out wrong information given inside a retail environment is staggering.

If the retailer isn't stocking the goods, or is charging more than the extra cost of shipping from an online outlet, then they need to rework their business plan.

Prices between REI, Backcountry.com, Mountaingear.com, Sierratradingpost.com - or even buying direct from bdel.com, bigagnes.com etc. are all +/- a buck or two. There's no excuse to charge more.

Welcome to the 21st century. Your way of thinking died in 1997.

If you want more background on ethics, you can go to the Josephson Institute of Ethics website. I sum up ethics into a single question, "Do you have a hidden agenda?"

If you go into a store and say up front that you are looking for gear at a number of places and just want to see what they have, there is no hidden agenda. If people provide you assistance, they know that you are not looking to buy right now and that it is their risk.

While I do a fair amount of product comparisons online, I make a point to not do all my buying online. Even if I might save a few bucks online, I would not be helping the local economy any. If all the stores in the area dry up, who will employ the next generation.

I suppose there were 8-track tape buyers who felt that way too. What else could we possibly record music on?

New opportunities emerge. Backcountry.com was founded in 1996 and now employs several hundred individuals. Big Agnes is only a few years old. If they are to survive and employ the next generation, they need a broader retail reach than physical stores can offer. Last time at the REI store, they had 1 Big Agnes bag in stock. Online - REI offers almost all of them.

Last time I was at Adventure 16, they had about 3 0 degree down bags in stock; 2 The North Face and a Marmot. Big Agnes makes a superior product to both. But according to your line of thinking, I should buy a inferior product simply because the store employed a local kid?

Take a look at Mountaingear.com as an example. 23 years of business. They started as a single retail store. But they evolved their business model. Thanks to selling online at competitive pricing, they now serve customers world-wide. And they employ more people than they did as a "local" retailer.

The specialty manufacturer is the one that is really hurt by this. Your line of thinking kills new entries into the market and destroys the new employment opportunities these entries make.

If I go to a retailer and they have the item in-stock, in the size I want, at a price that is competitive, I'll buy it. But to say that I'm stealing or am unethical if I take my hard earned money to elsewhere to buy the right product at a competitive price doesn't make sense to me.

wb,

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.

Customers, simply by walking into a store, speaking with a sales rep, and sampling the available fare, are not "utilizing" the time, inventory and space of that store and its sales people in any way that adversely affects that retailer. If retailers charged potential customers for walking into the store, talking to them, and showing them inventory, then perhaps you have a point. But this is just part of the cost of doing business.

Rather, SoCalGirl is describing what is understood to be "shopping around". You say many would consider this an unethical practice. I know no one who would consider it as anything other than mere shopping around and being a good steward of one's finances, given not only the high price of everything these days, but also the myriad of brands, models and quality (or not) from which to choose. In fact, I don't know anyone who doesn't shop around. Not only is it not unethical (and most certainly not theft in any sense), but on the contrary, retailers not only understand this, they expect it (customers shopping around).

No customer is ever obligated to buy something in a store just because they walk in, touch the product, try it on, or try and find out what the best buy is, etc., even if the best buy is at that store's competitor. If it were otherwise, I would be obligated to buy tons more than I ever do when Christmas shopping for my wife each year, to use one example. You can bet I price compare, touch a whole lot of stuff, and then go for the best value possible, and I do it (on that particular occasion) by walking through a large number of relevant stores in one of our local malls here. I also shop online, sometimes buying the product online, and sometimes finding the info I need online but then buying it in a store (whether or not it's the store of the online site I looked at). How else do you compare prices, quality, and other features of any product?

Or what if I applied your concept to the purchase of my next car? I doubt the car dealer will think I'm being unethical or stealing one of his cars just because I'm test driving it and/or because he's telling me all about it's good points and trying to make a sale to me, after which my informed decision is that the car is not for me, and even perhaps that the dealership is not for me. I won't know any of that until I take a test drive (or two or three) and get a feel for the quality of the dealership. That's just the nature of retailing and the nature of business.

As a retailer, you win some (perhaps including some who tried out your competitor's store and then came to you), and you lose some (including to your competitors) -- all to say that this sort of thing evens out in the end, and those retailers having the products and/or services with the best value generally end up getting an appropriate overall share of the total available business for that product/service, which is the way it should be -- people don't gravitate toward bad value.

CaT

I have to go with WB on this. If the intention is to use the advice and expertice of an expert. Try on their stocked item with no intention other than to shop elsewhere online to "beat" the price then it is wrong.
I bet if you told the person helping you out that you had no intention of buying their product because you were going to purchase it online, they might not spend much time with you.Rightfully so.

Speaking only for myself, I would never tell a sales rep (whether expert or not) such a thing because I wouldn't know if my intention would be to buy it either at that store, online, or at another store until after I first consulted with the sales rep/expert. But role playing myself in the situation you described for a moment, I would at least try and see if the store with the expert could match the online price, assuming that price difference is the only reason for buying the same product online rather than in-store, in this particular scenario. But normally when I shop, if I get into a store and pick the brain of a knowledgeable sales rep, I will buy the product from that sales rep, more often than not, but would still never feel obligated to do so unless I were first satisfied that I was getting the best value (which is not always determined by the cost -- either low or high).

CaT

definite agreement here - always check with the wife first,
but are you saying when I buy a car too?

Just because we look now and don't necessarily buy... or look now.. try it on.. and then either buy elsewhere or come back later doesn't mean that we're not supporting the brick and mortar that we're in.

I don't know about any one else.. but personally... no matter what I go into REI for, even if it's only to "look" at something... I never leave without a stop at the cash register.

I share my experiences with REI with all of my friends and family nad have personally introduced people who had never been there to the store, thus... garnering more business for the store then what I could personally spend myself.

It's worth remembering that brick-and-mortar stores are businesses, not charities.

When businesses buy their inventory, they too have a choice. My strong suspicion would be that businesses that always buy the most expensive stock don't stay businesses for long.

Exercising our right to choose where to buy is not theft, it's just the way of the free market. I won't argue that the free market is often merciless (just ask Smith Corona), but it is efficient--and it forces businesses to stay competitive or perish.

That is pretty harsh romanandrey.To place the Ma and Pa small businesses into the harsh realities of corporate America is insensitive. 87% of all buisness in the US are "small" businesses. They are not the large corporations that drive our economy.To dismiss this moral issue into a simplistic statement that the free market is often merciless is the mentality driving small businesses out.
I for one say it is worth a few extra dollars to support businesses like A16.I would hate it if that option was removed from my ability to have a "choice" for my "inventory"

"Adventure 16 began as a goal of some young Explorer Scouts whose leaders were involved in river running in the early 60s. Together, they set out to make 16mm adventure films for a lecture series. In the process, their passion turned to making backpacks. A garage in La Mesa, California became a workshop to develop a revolutionary pack design that allowed much of the pack's weight to be carried comfortably on the hips. By the late 60's the hobby had become a business. The entrepreneurial leaders were busy inventing and selling innovative, top-of-the-line products, including the first two-layer dome tent specifically engineered for backpackers needs.

In 1970, Mic Mead, an avid customer and active outdoorsman, bought and incorporated the company." ( see www.adventure16.com/aboutus.htm )

Imagine starting out as a small "mom and pop" business, in an evolving, dynamic industry, to achieve sucess in the free market, all the way to incorporation. Ah, the free market, where, without excessive, unecessary regulation, everyone can compete. Ah, the American Dream.

And, Adventure16 continues (in some markets) to continue business with the perception of being a "mom and pop"!

This is admittedly off-topic, but I recall seeing a very similar quote from the late Ken Lay when he was running Enron.

I own 2 small busineses that are incorporated and still run them both as ma and pa. Just because a business is incorporated doesn't mean that the ma and pa that started them and still run them, have changed the spirit behind them. This really doesn't have to do with whether a business is incorporated or not anyways.

It really has to do with a business that pays rent for space,buys and stocks inventory,hires staff to demonstrate and provide personalized service so that someone can take that information and shop it online to save a few bucks.That all at the expense of a business that does not get the benefit of a sale.That is the moral issue being discussed.It is not illegal and apparently to some not unethical. It certainly is unfair in my opinion.

Your arguments are illogical. If the product doesn't fit, is il-fitted to my needs it is an inferior product. I will not buy it simply because it's what a store has in stock.

Some other ways your logic breaks down. Backcountry.com carries 41 one your products. REI - in the store = 0 (at least in the larger packs I was looking at this past weekend when buying some fuel and a couple of shirts). A16? Not there either.

Where exactly are you gong to be selling this awesome Heritage series?
Tilly's
Mervyn's
Kohl's
Office Max
Big 5
Things Remembered
Anchor Blue
JC Penny
Shoe City
(all from your website)
Those are not stores at which I'd shop for quality back country gear.

Seems to me the only true outdoor company selling your stuff is Backcountry.com - but they are just an online flea market to you?

Further your point dissolves when looking at Mountaingear.com. Started as 1 retail outlet (which they still have), they evolved their business model to meet the market - as all successful businesses do.

It's an interesting discussion though. I look at the manufacturers that gain the most. The barriers to entry have dropped dramatically thanks to online sales. Retailers used to have the power to control new market entries by restricting shelf space. Now, these start-ups have a fighting chance thanks to electronic commerce.

Oh, and setting up an online store is very easy - either on your own or through someone like Amazon. There's no real barrier there preventing ma and pa from going global.

Even Mammoth Mountaineering has gone online. I consider them one of the best "retail" stores with the best staff. But they aren't carrying JanSport - sorry - but they are selling online.



That's a negative ghost rider. Check out the history of mountaingear.com and Mammoth Mountaineering (mammothgear.com) for two world class examples of how this statement is incorrect. Dinosaurs die-off because they fail to adapt to the changing environment. Those that do, survive. Those that don't - perish. The online presence enhances the customer's relationship, it doesn't destroy it.

Yes,


dramatically thanks to online sales. Retailers used to have the power to control new market entries by restricting shelf space. Now, these start-ups have a fighting chance thanks to electronic commerce... "

all without without excessive, unecessary regulation, taxes, incentives, etc (government intervention/regulation), everyone can compete. Ah, the American Dream...

and, if those boy scouts at Adventure16, market an on-line store on their web site, and the link doesn't work and/or doesn't exist, I suppose I'll buy my lightweight mirror @ REI, Rite-Aid, Big5, or maybe just grab one in China , where they are all made anyway.

So superTramp is it sarcasm or cynicism? I can't tell.

Believe that is termed the "invisible hand in the market"...
nontheless, it is what it is

Of course, Adam Smith also supported blatant protectionism when it helped Britain. After all, that's how Britain (and later the US) got to the top ot the economic heap.

As Joseph Stiglitz put it:

Amazing. From backpacks to externalities.

I prefer internalities, but external frame packs have their advantages and continue to be used, especially by people my age. I think that Adam Smith prefers external frame packs too!