Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board more poop on the poop pack-out

I, as have many, have had varying feelings on the issue. The thing that really move my thoughts, was the issue of worker safety involved. I read the following from a podcast on the subject at wildebeat.net:

==================

ERIKA JOSTAD: I think that the rangers that work in the wilderness dreamed of the more romantic cabin in the woods: Patrolling, saving lives, that sort of thing. And fairly low down on their list if it made it at all was doing things like toilet maintenance.

STEVE: That was Erika Jostad, wilderness manager for Sequoia National Park. Last time, we heard that the Forest Service is issuing kits to Mount Whitney hikers and climbers for packing out their own human waste. Brian Spitek, the Wilderness Manager for Mount Whitney, has had to deal with this issue hands-on.

BRIAN SPITEK: ...I've been here about four years. My first poop run, as we call it, that's when we have a helicopter mission to remove the poop. The first one was really quite horrific... And we have people who camp up there for days on end who also deal with this stuff. They don't have proper facilities to wash themselves, they don't have an eye wash, they don't have a shower in case something bad happens. They really have none of the safety features that you might find down at a sewage treatment plant after something like that.

MIKE MIELE: It all starts by putting on a little monkey suit, the HAZMAT suit...

STEVE: Mike Miele is a backcountry ranger on the Mount Whitney trail.

MIKE MIELE: all the way from the booties, to the gloves, to the face mask, to the protective head gear -- the whole nine yards -- eye-wear. And then you're dealing with up to four hundred pounds of solid human waste. That's always good times I guess. And so what you do is you hoist it out of the toilet with this mesh, like bag type deal, hoist that out, weight it, make sure it's all sealed up real good so the helicopter doesn't drop it... and then that could take anywhere from half a day to a two-day project to get it all done. And then afterwards, you're taking off your little monkey suit, and you feel like you've been swimming in solid waste for about two hours. So it's not a good feeling, especially if you do it in the beginning of your tour, on a five day tour. You're up there just feeling grungy the whole time.

BRIAN SPITEK: ...invariably you get it on yourself, and then you've got to crawl in your sleeping bag. You know you don't have hot water to wash yourself. I just find this totally unacceptable...

STEVE: Not only is this job dirty, but it's also dangerous. Dave Mettam manages the helicopter crews for the Inyo National Forest.

DAVE METTAM: You're putting a pilot in a hovering situation. What we call, I hate to say it, but dead man's curve. There's a height/velocity diagram in the charts for the aircraft where if you're below a certain altitude and below a certain speed, the safe auto-rotation in case you're aircraft has a failure is not achievable... So the risk is fairly high when you're doing these missions.

BRIAN SPITEK: I try to put the fabric bag on a piece of plastic or something, but basically it goes into a helicopter cargo net. It's a net probably ten or fifteen feet in diameter. And it gets cinched up, and it basically hooked onto the long line beneath the helicopter... so if you're ever up at Trail Camp and you see a helicopter go by with big long cable and at the end of it is a big, black bundle, that's probably one of my packages of joy being flown down to the Owens Valley.

MIKE MIELE: The helicopter lift was pretty early in the morning so we woke up Outpost Camp and Trail Camp, so we had, I don't know, at that airlift, there was probably about 15 people standing in that vicinity, watching the helicopters.

STEVE: What was their reaction?

MIKE MIELE: They were wondering what we were doing... When they found out, it was all about poo, they were pretty baffled about the idea that there's that much solid waste being pulled off Whitney.

Good post, Ken. I witnessed the process before the outhouses were removed - that really galvanized my thinking.

People don't want to take responsibility and expect others to do the dirty work...in this case, the ultimate expression of selfishness. Seeing the process live or reading narratives as above may be the best way to change minds.

The rangers still pack out a lot of used, abandoned wag bags (including broken ones) and a number of people who post on this board voluntarily do the same. Those people are inspiring and make life good for all of us.

<<rant cycle on>>

It was interesting talking to some locals recently about the Wilderness Bill, and some of the side notes and ideas that were brought up. One gentleman insisted that the installation of pit toilets along the Whitney trail would not only create jobs, but would be cost-effective and would keep it cleaner. He was appalled about the fact that people were being asked to bring their own waste off the mountain. I don't think this man has been up the trail in decades himself.

Frankly, everyone going up there needs to get over it. Poop in the bag, clean yourself up, wash your hands, and pack it out. Take responsibility for yourself: the rangers are not up there to clean up after you.

<<rant cycle off>>

Go Moosie....

Last year I was talking to someone about my own adventures on Whitney and the first question they asked was "Does it still smell like crap at Trail Camp?"...

I was never up there when the toilets were.. but honestly... my ideal vacation isn't taking time off of work to hike up to someplace that challenges my body and soul.. only to have my gag reflex testing as well.

Really? How hard is it to bag it and pack it? Have issues with the thought of carrying the bag? Mom went to Walmart, bought a couple of cheap plastic containers... and we used that to store our "used bags".... no smell... no mess... no worry...

Like Moosie says.. do it and get over it...

In the early 70s, the NPS trail crew would take the outhouse/garbage can on the Whitney summit, wrestle it over to the the east face and dump it. Really! They'd be tied in and you can still find the anchors for the belays. One year, they tried soaking it in diesel and lighting it. Really, really bad idea. It smoldered for weeks... .

After that we'd sling load the can off the summit (Operation Thunder Throne). As the USFS pilot notes, that's hugely dangerous but was continued on Whitney summit to only a couple of years ago, when the whole thing was finally removed as wag bags started to be used.

g.

When the ice finally thaws on the traverse to the summit, there are two wag bags waiting for recovery. Animals had gotten to one of them, so it's going to be a real mess as it melts out. (I wasn't willing to break out an ice axe to chip away at the mess and it's covered by fresh snow from Friday's snow, so we didn't have to witness the mess this past Saturday.)

It makes it difficult to teach my boys proper etiquette, and was supremely disappointing when on the MT last summer we found fresh remains on the trail. I don't mean off to the side under a rock which is bad enough, on the trail. I also fear you are preaching to the choir on this board. Hopefully though someone will be converted to leaving no trace by reading this thread. Thanks to the NFS for all the crap they put up with to make our experience in the outdoors better.

Disagree, the solar toliets worked fine when they were used for solid waste only, wag bags are a joke!
If you think for a minute that anyone other than the frequent posters on this blog pack out their poop your high.

I waited for my crew to show last season for a 3 night trip and watched 27 people decend from the trail, not one single overnight camper "those with full packs not day packs" dropped a thing in the wag trash can.

as to the dirty jobs done by the forest service? I am sure they covered this in the job dicription

If you read the January 2004 Environmental Assessment report, which addressed the alternatives for waste management in the Mt. Whitney area, you will see that Alternative 5—toilet removal and mandatory pack out—is what they eventually elected. From page 38:


"It is likely that the compliance rate will be 50% initially (first year), and achieving, at best 80% compliance. A mandatory program will require a Forest Supervisors Order. There will be enforcement issues with compliance. Enforcement of the requirement will be difficult. It will be difficult to determine who is complying and there may be a negative response from visitors that will result in non-compliance.

This alternative will require a significant change in behavior for visitors.

Because there will be no buildings, camping will likely disperse out to other areas, with visitors having freedom to choose their site and no need to locate their site at Trail Camp and Outpost. Concentration of use will likely remain at these locations since they are logical sites. But with the possible change in visitor type (discussed above), campsites may develop in new locations.

There may be an increase in urine smell throughout the camp concentrations areas, or at least the urine smell will continue. There may be an increase in (used) toilet paper on the ground and human waste partially buried or dug up by animals. This may have an aesthetic impact for visitors. There will be a moderate risk of exposure to human waste by employees."


Note in particular the last paragraph, the result of that expected 20% noncompliance rate. I haven’t learned what they were going to do, back then, to address this 20%—but they surely had a plan. (It could have been to do nothing: Let nature take care of things, as she does at countless other places in the Sierra.)

On page 22 of the report, they mention that with no toilets and no packing out, the feces and toilet paper of 20,000 – 30,000 people could accumulate each year. Using the 80% compliance rate, and assuming that 90% of visitors come during the summer-like third of the year, this means that about 40 people were expected to disobey the policy during the summer, every day! They knew this and must have been satisfied with it, because they went ahead with the implementation.

Don’t get me wrong. I know that the thrust of this thread is to encourage people to do the right thing. I, too, have carried out others' used wag bags. But for those poops (in bags or otherwise) that remain for the USFS to deal with, they went into this with their eyes wide open.

I keep thinking back to my response to that initially circulated Environmental Assessment report. Drill a 3-foot x 3000-foot deep hole; some simple calculations suggest that it would hold a century's worth of poop.

Hmmm. Alas, the solar toilets were an absolute disaster. They never worked to dry out the "solids" as they were designed to do. As a result, you could literally smell them 1/2 a mile away. The plan was to be able to pack out much reduced dry volume. That never happened in the 15+ years they were there. I suppose you can argue that people should have done a better job of segregating their piss from their poop but, come on, this stuff has to be practical.

As a side note, I've looked at various outhouse composting or drying systems in detail for Ostrander Ski Hut in Yosemite. We weren't able to find a single one (and there's several in the Pear Lake area) that worked. All of them end up packing out almost pure, ummm, effluent. The system we use for Ostrander is the Johnny Partner -- essentially an ammo can. That actually works really well, but you still have to pack them out by mule.

I can't speak for the USFS side, but on the NPS side (Crabtree to the summit and especially Guitar Lake) compliance is pretty incredible. Only a few wag bags are found stuffed under rocks and the sanitation around Guitar has improved dramatically. I was actually surprised. I didn't think anyone would use them. On the whole, I've found backpackers to be pretty cooperative when you explain the need for something to them. Most everyone wants to take care of the place... .

It's less important that poop patrol is covered in the job description (though for b/c rangers in Sequoia Kings, I know that it's not) than that safety equipment and Hep C vaccination is done. I suspect the USFS operation is not in compliance with a number of OSHA requirements but we cheerful and dedicated government types rarely complain.

g.

2006 while coming up the MR, we arrived with an unplanned but perfect timing for the summit and the helo removal of the poop for the last time. the toilet was removed. Harvey

hazardous waste helo over the hut

The 20% expected noncompliance bothers me too. The problem is, how do you check for compliance? Returning with an unused wag bag could indicate noncompliance, but it could just mean constipation, or using Imodium as a food supplement (NOT recommended, but I've known hikers to do it). I know my system shuts down the first few days of each hike.

So, what to do about the 20%? I can't believe we can't find a way to really solve this problem with a permanent fixture. A really deep hole? Incinerate it with laser beams? Something... The area is too precious, and demand for use is high, and I have to believe we can find a way to protect the watershed while accommodating users. Many Whitney hikers are not on this board, have never hiked before, and will never hike again, just because it's Whitney.

I suppose that it is the liberal in m that is offended by the concept of requiring people to perform a job that is unsafe. I suppose it is the conservative in my that is offended by the concept of agencies of the gov't using their power to ignore the law requiring worker safety.

I started this thread, as we seem to need to re-hash this subject periodically, and had not for awhile.

I am heartened by George's comments that at least on the west side, things are much cleaner with the current system. I am positive that whatever cleanup is now required is vastly simpler and safer than what came before. I would love to hear the USFS side of things, as well. In about two weeks, I'll be spending a couple of days with Brian Spitek, who I think is the wilderness manager for Whitney, and I'll be interested to get his take.

Ken

hate to be a downer Ken but the west side is cleaner because it has vastly lesser numbers using it.

Just stop by the start at the portal any summer day and watch the packs stream out, I bet its even less than 10% who pack out their poop.

bring back the toliets, you cant have the huge numbers on the trail every season with out looking at the waste factor.

just a procedural question: how do they think I will handle my waste this summer when heading over the summit and on to Yosemite via the JMT? Pack the bag to Muir Trail Ranch for disposal?

Boy, is this a fun discussion or what?

The good news is the wag bags are only required/strongly encouraged (not sure which) on the Whitney trail, summit, and over to Guitar. I think Yosemite is looking at them, but I don't think anyone else actually requires them or even strongly encourages them (but I don't always keep up, so could well be wrong...). So from Guitar north, you can continue with the cat hole thing. I would, though, strongly encourage carrying a few paper bags to pack out your TP. That's probably the greatest irritation on the trail is someone just crapping on the top of the ground then putting a big rock on top of that and the TP. I mean, ewwwwwww.

When you get to a place where you can have a fire, you can then burn the bag. I used to say it was OK to burn it on site, but we just get too many wildfires caused that way.

This is something where we (rangers) and group leaders (even with friends) don't do a very good job of making sure everyone gets good information on how to crap in the woods.

I'm a major fan of educating people and I know that it works, though it's slow to see results. Toilets seem, at first glance, to be a quick and easy solution, whatever design (pit or composting). After decades of experience with them, they're not at all. They fill up; people dump garbage in them; what do you do with the effluent?; does it leach into the ground or surface water?; the agency in charge ALWAYS runs out of funding and they get neglected -- composters need attention 2 or 3 times a week; and, most important, composters just don't work above about 8,000 feet, not once; & etc.

There's two choices: reduce the number of people such that the landscape & ecosystem can handle the amount of crap or teach users to crap better. Although not initially a fan, I'm now thinking that the wag bags and education (for the unique use problems of Whitney) are the way to go. Compliance will keep going up with time and, with luck, those not complying will still be within range of what the ecosystem can handle.

George

Mr. Durkee,

I don't really mind using wag bags but I'm curious. Helicopters are used to fly out big steel tanks of human waste in other backcountry locations in the world that I've visited. It works well in those place. So why not at Trail Camp? Is 12K too high for the aircraft to safely operate?

EP:

Good questions, of course. Even though they do it, a helicopter in a hover & long line haul at that altitude is dangerous. There's just no margin for error. As the pilot notes at the beginning of this thread, they're likely unable to auto-rotate in case of engine failure. At the same time of dealing with an emergency, they've also got to cut the load which adds even more danger to the ship as well as ground crew and bystanders. When I'm involved, I find the biggest rock or tree around and hide behind it. I tell bystanders to do the same.

But one of the main problems is using a helicopter in a wilderness setting. It's allowed under several exceptions to the Wilderness Act, but is still an intrusion and best avoided wherever possible. And, of course, they're also hugely expensive.

Along those same lines is the Wilderness requirement of using the Minimum Tool. That's using the least intrusive method to accomplish something. If wag bags can be shown to be less intrusive and have less ecological impact than, say, toilets and whatever method is used to maintain them, then that's the Minimum Tool.

Hope that helps.

g.

George, sure glad for your input here. Since you are educating us, I have a question regarding TP.

Yosemite people tell hikers to carry out their TP. You implied that above, too.

My question is: Is TP less biodegradable than human waste? Can't it be buried along with the waste in a cat hole? Are there different brands of TP that are more quickly biodegraded?

Thanks!