Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board more poop on the poop pack-out

Bob,

As a lifelong Angeleno, and having spent many, many hours in the Eastern Sierra Museum in Independence learning the history of what L.A. did to the Owens Valley, I daresay we deserve the occasional "dig" about our water supply. \:\)

The good news that having spent so much time basking in wonderment at the beauty of the Sierra, I now actually think about where my water comes from when I turn on the tap. I often wonder if the water I am drinking perhaps actually flowed down Lone Pine creek at some point. When I think about where it came from, I try to be a little more careful what I do with it.

Ms. Moose,

Dry bags are expensive and heavy. And (as mentioned) they don't even completely block odors. If you're worried bears will hassle you over a washed out food or coffee jar buy a cheap plastic food storage container instead. A quart size is probably more than big enough for one trail muffin. It will be very light and probably no bulkier than a folded up drybag. And later you can just toss the whole thing into a dumpster instead hosing down your "investment".

AsABat et al:

Probably worth some clarifications.

The Wilderness Act definitely allows structures and stuff in Wilderness, though under fairly narrow conditions. It must further or protect the Wilderness it's put in.

So, a ranger station arguably furthers wilderness if (!) the ranger stationed there can be shown to be a net positive to the wilderness where it's located vs. not being there. I wrote an Environmental Assessment a few years ago for 3 replacement stations in Sequoia Kings and that's what I had to show. They're far enough in the backcountry that you could show that, assuming the same budget and total number of rangers, if the patrol rangers had to hike in and live out of their backpacks -- going out for resupplies and days off -- that they couldn't patrol as many miles or as extensively. Large sections of Sequoia Kings would remain unpatrolled vs. having a base already farther in where the ranger spends all his or her time. The lack of patrol would, arguably, not allow rangers to pick up as much garbage, talk to and educate as many visitors, get to more remote areas to do wilderness protection duties, observe and report on endangered species and other wildlife, meadow impacts from stock & etc. Wilderness qualities would degrade as a result of not having the ranger stations and assigned ranger.

As a side note, emergency services (Search & Rescue & medicals) is not an argument because those aren't wilderness qualities. It's a good argument for ranger stations nonetheless. Somehow or other I did point out in the EA that rangers likely prevented one or two fatalities per year by being able to respond more quickly to emergencies.

Same with an outhouse. If (!!) you can show that's the minimum tool to, for instance, protect water quality and aesthetics (TP under rocks; the wilderness intrusion of piles of human poop scattered hither and yon), then you can put one in. I think the old ones that were taken out on the Whitney trail were either pre-Wilderness protection or before the USFS really cared about compliance (often forced by court decisions).

So all I'm saying is you can definitely build an outhouse on the Whitney trail. But nowadays you have to fairly clearly show that it's the Minimum Tool to accomplish your goals (and cost is not really a justification). If wag bags are shown to be an absolute disaster with not enough compliance for an ecological (water quality and aesthetics) benefit, then you've got a stronger argument for an outhouse. But, you've still got to show the impact involved in building and maintaining them and compare to the wag bag or other alternatives. Will the outhouse require a helicopter or mules to pack out the solids? What are the impacts of either? Mules and horses will deposit x amount of manure with y amount of giardia and cryptosporidium. How much will potentially reach open water? Etc.... .

Thanks for the 'attaboy' on b/c rangers. I'm assuming you're a fellow baby boomer, if you wanted to be a ranger in the 70s. You may have missed out but, with luck, you also have some form or retirement and a health plan. It's all a trade-off. Alas, the next generation is mostly uninterested.

OK. Again, hope that helps.

g.

I would like to see some seats set up for the wag bags, like premnanent PETT seats.

This is however unpractical, since people would inevitably not use the bag and the thing would fill up with crap pretty fast.

Fortunately I usually go the first 48 hours of any hiking trip without a bowel movement so I would likely not have to use the bag at all.

Good advice; all the advice to "get over it, just do it" sounds nice, but it's not going to work. Besides the deeply-embedded cultural aspects (privacy/solitude), natural instincts are inbuilt that tell us our crap is repulsive; the smell alone serves as a warning for us to avoid it, and it well should, as many diseases are spread by contact or exposure.

So I say get your head out of the clouds, and realize that you're not going to change the above by telling people they have to use plastic bags and carry it out. It goes against everything we've learned our whole lives, not to mention our instincts, and trying to change something like that is pounding your head against the wall.

Sure, you'll get some to comply...I read on this board of some guy that would be leading a group, and take a dump right there, in plain view, on the trail, then scoop it up and move on. While it was spoken of as though this guy really had his act together, I find this repulsive...the last place I want to be is next to some guy taking a stinky bacteria-infested dump while chatting about the weather. If this is "advanced thinking", I'm afraid I prefer the dark ages.

So add a few bucks to the fees, enough to cover a few well-designed outhouses, set up a means of safe disposal and cleanliness for those doing the work, and quit trying to do the impossible. There are just too many people going up Whitney for anything like wagbags to be a practical solution.

In the summer season, calling the Main Whitney Trail “Wilderness” is ludicrous at best. When 150 individuals a day march like ants, only to the summit and back…never getting more than 100 feet off the trail…this is a pilgrimage, not a wilderness habitat.

From May till October, remove this sacrosanct “wilderness” designation for the main trail corridor, (and extend this now special area designation 100 yards in each north/south direction), provide ample and private sanitary facilities by charging a fee for the endeavor. Whatever the cost…~$20 per head, enough to cover a few well-designed outhouses; set up a means of safe disposal and cleanliness for those doing the work, and quit trying to do the impossible. …then let private enterprise handle the details. The lottery proves there is a demand for the trail; supply the facilities to make it sanitary and enjoyable.
Using a Wag Bag in public…not the answer…be realistic!

This topic seems to be overtaken by the "poop bag is great opinion", but let's think "outside the bag" too. Consider what is working very well at Shasta Horse Camp, Little Yosemite Valley, Havasupai - Grand Canyon etc etc. A modern solar composting toilet is an outstanding solution to this basic sanitary problem. These areas are almost entirely free of toilet paper, urine, and feces - and these toilets are far more pleasant than pit toilets in campgrounds. The final "product" is packed out by mules not helicopters. Rangers don't need to be involved.

Whatever the official wilderness designation is at Trail Camp, lets face reality, its Grand Central Station with thousands of people dumping each year. This is a special use area that already had toilets, they should be able put in new ones using the latest technology.

They estimate a 20% noncompliance rate with the crap bags - that is a significant environmental impact. Rather than try to change human nature, why not reinstall a modern toilet system with the latest solar composting/evaporating technology and contract the maintenance to a private party. Rangers have more important duties. Everybody wins. We're paying enough in permit fees to afford this level of service and environmental protection. Sure the old toilets were crappy (no phun intended), but modern facilities would perform much better.

Think out of the bag - save them for cold snowy conditions when there's no better alternative.

So who provides a solar composting toilet guaranteed to work unattended at 10,000' or 12,000' at 36 degrees or more north latitude? What season, if any will it function over? How many people will each seat serve?

I've looked at data on the Phoenix Composting Toilet that the Shasta Horse Camp uses. Their only application example at altitude, at 10,000' points out that the composting chamber must be kept warm to function properly. That's easier in an occupied (heated) living space than out on a wilderness mountainside alone. The Shasta Horse Camp is also staffed.

Dale B. Dalrymple

I'm a civil engineer and I assure you the technology exists to overcome these challenges. The challenges going from 8,000 ft on Shasta to 11,000 ft in the Southern Sierra are not a big deal. Remember the bulk of the impact occurs during the hottest 3 months of the year with the most intense sunshine available.

This is 21st century America. Yes we can do this.

Looks like they did, require the hikers to carry out the waste no engineering needed civil or un civil Thanks Doug

That's what the engineers involved with the last type of solar toilets said, Bagpeak!

That's what engineers said about the Mars Observer spacecraft. Why did it fail? According to the Independent Investigation Board, "The engine was derived from one belonging to an Earth orbital satellite and was not designed to lie dormant for months before being fired."

I dunno. Perhaps I am over-skeptical. However, if a group of engineers got together and designed and produced such a thing with their own money, and were responsible for maintenance.....rather than using taxpayer money to experiment and potentially stick it to the public when the assurances didn't work, I'd be interested to see one.

"Requiring" anything isn't going to solve the problem. From reading the earlier posts, the FS knew it was going to have problems,and went ahead anyway. People aren't machines, nor are the Whitney hikers all in the military, so "requiring" compliance is unenforceable and futile.

If they instead put their efforts into designing a better system (why on earth did they tear down the ones they had, when they could have concentrated on improving the technology and the processes instead?), things would be so much easier all around. No more "how do I keep it from smelling?" no "where to put it?" no more "awright, who left their wagbag by the trail?" multiple times every day or week.

The Clivus Multrum people have built some fantastic units, and I'd guess they would be great to consult for any needed technology. If they have to pack out the waste, hire people for it, knowing it's in the job description. Give them a place/way to clean up...if you're running a helicopter up there, hauling a few gallons of water up for possible emergency cleanup shouldn't be any issue. Design the units with the cleanup process in mind. Add $5 onto each permit/person, and even for the free walkup ones.

It's basically a question of weighing the possibilities realistically:

Require wagbags...impossible for success, some will comply, some won't.

Put (back) the toilets in a form that is workable...difficult, maybe, but at least shows the possibility of success.

What a waste of time and effort this forced wagbag thing is in this situation, and the results obviously stink. In a fairytale world, it works, in reality, not going to happen, so quit wasting time and do something that really will work. You will not change human nature and a lifetime of learning and cultural habits by "requiring" anything.

Doug, I don't understand your issue with engineering, civil or uncivil.

Don't you enjoy driving your engineered vehicle on your engineered road to your engineered Whitney portal building or drinking cold beverages from your engineered refrigerator? But you don't want a high tech toilet.

Mars is a bit more challenging that adapting a solar composting/evaporating toilet to 12,000 ft. I guess you missed all the success stories about landing and operating Mars rovers for far longer than they hoped for. Trial and error. Same with this toilet design.

If they paid me what they pay for these bags, I'd design one, but don't ask people to work for free. The many thousands of dollars from permit fees can finance maintenance.

I was wondering what Doug's take is on this, now we know.

Let's list some 'reality check' items. The current system works. Are we to believe that everyone shows up at the Portal with a huge load, just dying to hike a bit and dump? Isn't it more likely that most tourists simply hold it? How much difference is there is baring one's behind for a bag as opposed to dumping on the ground? I'm guessing either is so frightening to most people they 'just say no'.

Some of you are selling an image of an immaculate, high tech facility, complete with attendant and starched white linens --- I don't think so.

Personally I have a very acute gag reflex and find even the cleanest, best maintained outhouses repulsive. I'd bet I'm not alone on this. If the choice was using those or dumping in my boots I'd choose the latter and squish my way up the hill. A wag bag is a much better solution.

I'm guessing most of the regulars on this board know the proper sanitary standards, dig the proper trench and move on (thanks Ken for the slurry idea - I was using a bic lighter). Or use the wag bag where the rules so dictate.

The discussion seems to have turned to pleasing the people who throw candy wrappers and cigarette butts all over the place, or sociopaths who do whatever they want without any sense of responsibility. Steep fines usually work best with that crowd.

Except that YOU are the one who says it is easily achievable....just like the engineers who said the last set of toilets at $300,000+ each would work wonderfully. Wonderfully.

So, now it is on YOU to demonstrate that such technology exists. You say it does, so point our browsers to it, we are all waiting...... But each minute that passes that you don't, you're concept loses more credibility.

So they paid the last engineers over $500,000, and I'm sure they are sitting on a beach somewhere (with a flush toilet), laughing that anyone would consider doing it again!

You know the Einstein quote about expecting a different result....

speaking of sociopaths why dont the law enforcement types get the wackos like the dude who decided to vandalize the vehicles at a tailhead to clean up the left over fecal matter .
This would be a great deterent to any idiot who crosses the law like the sick moron who decided to vandalize the cars of hard working people on a hike.
Get the old fashioned chain gang going and get them up to trail camp and clean the place

How do you know this experiment with poop bags works? How has the water quality in the lakes and creek changed since they made this decision? How's the e coli count, guardia, virus doing? How much TP is blowing around compared to before? How many more feces piles are stacking up now compared to before?

Hey, maybe you're right, but let's see the numbers. Are they even monitoring water quality? They have to carry off an enormous amount of human waste and trash off Shasta each year where the only option is a crap bag (above Horse Camp). How much is accumulating on Whitney now?


The "tourists" are on this trail for 12 hours or overnight. For everyone that "holds it" someone else probably goes twice. There are probaby thousands of dumps each season. And now 100% of the urine is landing on granite. Its like peeing on concrete. It doesn't soak in, and what's left stinks.


Have you ever even used a solar toilet? Little Yosemite Valley? Horse Camp on Shasta? Anywhere? They are not bad at all and way better than a pit toilet. I suspect you've never used one that's properly designed and maintained. The old ones on Whitney were under designed. We can learn from those mistakes and adjust. There are turnkey solutions that can be beefed up for this environment.


We're talking about Trail Camp above treeline. Granite with minimal sand/gravel cover. You can't dig a proper hole and even if you did there isn't enough organic soil to break down your feces. It eventually decays into fractures in the granite and contaminates the water. Guaranteed.


How do you propose catching people who fail to use their crap bag to fine them? Are they going to weigh hikers before and after the hike to see if they moved their bowels?

Well, nobody's saying you CAN'T use a bag if you prefer; for that matter, you can wheel up a camper pot and one of those portable shower enclosures 8^).

I think the discussion turned because the board regulars you mentioned had their "get over it" say, and while it sounds nice, some of us realize that's just not going to work. It really doesn't sound like it works all that well to me.

You may happily comply with the wagbag provision; I may reluctantly do so and think it's a stupid idea and it was idiotic of them to remove the solar toilets that were already in place. Others may try to comply and run into complications with carrying, getting leaks, etc. And others may figure if they don't care enough to have an outhouse, they might as well go behind a rock. What are you going to do, put video cams all along the trail and hire a crew to watch them?

Ideally, you could build a football stadium without johns and just be sure to tell people to use the bathroom before they come. Or give them all plastic bags and expect them to use them. But we both know how stupid and ineffective that would be.

There are a lot of people going up the main trail, and they're not all members of this board, they come from everywhere and most probably don't throw their trash on the ground. But you're demanding they do something that most people would find ridiculous..."Crap in a plastic bag? Yeah, right, am I on Candid Camera?". And if there are viable alternatives, like genuine bathrooms of some sort, then they're right, it IS ridiculous, especially when there seems to be little or no effort to find a better option. I mean, a trail with that kind of traffic that takes a very long day or overnight to complete, and NO bathrooms? Ridiculous.

At the Coachella Valley Preserve, they have some Clivus Multrum composting outhouses that have NO odor, are clean, bright, and seem to work as designed. Different environment, but there's nothing to say there can't be ones that will work on the Whitney trail.

For any system to work, you need to have near-100% compliance, as piles of crap lying around exposed, or bags of it, are very obvious given a little time. Anyone, including the forest service, is capable of coming up with dumb or lazy ideas, and I think this is one of those "hey, I know, let's not build toilets, just give them bags to use" things that came up without much real analysis given to how it's going to work out.

I really hadn't intended to write so much about this subject, as it's not that big an issue to me, but I really think it's naive, and it's never going to work, and I don't think they put any real effort into finding a good working solution. The trail stinks, people pick up bags left by others, or find goodies not in bags, and there's been discussion of it for a long time here. Solve the problem by presenting a solution more palatable to the masses, it's that easy.

Ken, Sorry I was away from my computer for awhile, I hope I didn't "lose my credibility". This is not rocket science and this is not Mars. Have you ever used the toilet at Horse Camp 8,000 ft on Mt Shasta? How much of a stretch is it to think that similar success can be achieved at 11,000 at Trail Camp, hundreds of miles south and drier?

$500,000 for engineering the old toilets? No way. Where did you get that number? Maybe the whole system cost that much. That was a long time ago and it was not a good design. I saw that when I was there on my two summits a few years ago.

Let's quit with the "No can do" attitude people. THINK OUTSIDE THE BAG. All you need to go from 8,000 ft on Shasta to 12,000 ft on Whitney is better insulation and a few adjustments. If you have to, oversize the solar collectors to keep the ambient heat up. Use a simple tracking mechanism if necessary. This is not rocket science. It's 21st Century California and Yes We Can Do This.

DID OUR PERMIT FEE GO DOWN WHEN THEY TOOK OUT THE OLD TOILETS AND GAVE YOU A BAG OF KITTY LITTER INSTEAD? NO. WHERE'S THE MONEY?