Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board New Gun Law for National Parks

The person that insists on doing an open carry just because he can is the yahoo that's going to go off half cocked. I haven't, on any of the three boards, read any rational reason for walking around with an empty gun sidearm strapped to the hip in the parks.

Agreed Mike. While I support the 2nd in many ways, I don't really see the sense in this outside of Grizzly country. Black bears are generally non-aggressive and mountain lions will have your throat in their jaws before you can blink. Campgrounds - and the drinking that often goes on there - are not exactly the ideal place for a handgun to be. There's a perfectly good reason most states don't allow guns in bars.

Where I see it as a possible good thing is with solo female hikers. You may recall the widely-publicized account of Meredith Emerson, the young Emory U. student here in Atlanta who was brutally murdered for her cash and credit cards while hiking in a state park in the north Georgia mountains two years ago. The waste-of-human-DNA who did this also murdered 3 other hikers in North Carolina and Florida during the same spree, 2 of them women. I've often wondered if this a$$wipe, who was only armed with a police baton and knife, would have dared try it if Meredith had been openly carrying. Loaded or not, it gives the bad guy something to consider.

Cogent points Bulldog. Thanks for the well constructed thoughts. I agree with you on every point you made. I have however carried a sidearm in Glacier NP when backpacking. Never in California (where I live) though. The only thing that really makes me nervous in California is a mountain lion and I think my knife is probably the better choice of weapon for removing one from the back of my skull.

WhitRat, I will admit that if I had had access to my Glock when backpacking in North Cascades NP last year, it would have been with me. Black bears don't scare me - not badly enough to arm myself, anyway - but Grizzlies make me real nervous. I'm not sure what a 9mm round - or even 15 of them - would do to a charging brown bear, but I would have liked the comfort of having something other than that little Counter Assault spray can on my hipbelt. Unfortunately, flying from Atlanta to Seattle solved that conundrum for me.

I'd see the "Grizzly Parks" - Glacier, Yellowstone, Grand Tetons and North Cascades - as exceptions to my personal no-carry-when-hiking rule.

Completely agree Bulldog. I just don't find black bears to be much of a threat but browns worry me a bunch. Was up on the Teton crest (hiking solo) last summer and there had been griz sitings and was comforted a bit by having my bear spray and my 44 mag. I absolutely do NOT want to shoot a bear but I want to stay alive more.

On the Yosemite board I've tried to keep the argument to just carrying in Yosemite.

When I was researching our ranger organization's opposition to this law, I talked to rangers working in parks in grizzly areas. None thought a pistol of any caliber of much use against one. All were major fans of OC spray for personal protection.

You can dream up all sorts of scenarios that a handgun might be useful in -- a series of "what ifs." But you also have to look at level of risk in everything you're doing -- from getting into the car, hiking in a thunderstorm, drinking untreated water... -- and what you're willing to do to reduce those risks. These discussions about carrying guns are not about risk. There's clearly some deep emotion involved that has nothing to do with risk or logic or any statistics.

g.

To me it's the tranquility of Yosemite that is threatened when even one in a hundred persons in the campgrounds may be carrying a firearm that is probably loaded while they are at their campsite. Waiting for the shoe to drop. Tranquility?

I "open carry" in California and many other people do as well. Your thoughtless and biased view of open carry citizens is just plain wrong. We follow the law. We actually know and follow the law more than any other group in California. We are constantly stopped and harrased by police. We welcome the police.
I challenge you Mike to find ONE EXAMPLE of an open carry citizens "going off half cocked" as you put it.
We are the people who protect our own lives and the lives of our family and we do so LEGALLY in accordance with state law and US Constitution.
The reason we open carry in California is because most DA's and Sheriffs wont grant us our constitutional right to a CCW (concealed weapons permit).
Contrary to popular belief, open carry citizens CAN and DO have ammunition on their persons.
If anyone is interested in FACTS here is a good website with information on Open Carry laws and participants in California.

http://www.californiaopencarry.org/

Which is exactly why every ranger and ranger station is armed with shotguns, rifles and handguns and have used them against bears.
If the National Park Service, State Parks and National Forest Service members all want to give up their firearms then please do so.
They wont.
Just another example of liberals having and using guns and telling "their subjects" that they dont need them.
Like Diane Fienstein and Barbars Boxer
Try again.

I'm sorry Fuji, guys and gals like you give me the willies. Sitting by a stream in the tranquility of Yosemite, taking a stroll after work in my neighborhood, or relaxing for a coffee drink at Starbucks, my serenity will be totally gone....immediately, if somebody saunters up to me with a Glock 19,or Colt 45, or a Walther PPK strapped to their leg.

Of course everyone that "open carries" doesn't have a loaded "firearm," do they? If the person also is wearing body armor, would that be a problem too?

Just like the wild, wild west again. Everyone's hand is poised over their sidearms ready to draw their weapons.

Fuji, can you imagine what it would be like if everyone you passed on the John Muir Trail had an "unloaded" firearm strapped to their side. I'm sorry, would you tell me again how to tell from a distance if the firearm is loaded or not?

Maybe, instead of going backpacking this year, I'll just hang-out in Bay View-Hunters Point, or East Palo Alto. The next time I'm in the High Sierra, I'll proabably need all the street smarts I can learn.

Fuji Guy,
You got me on this one. Can you refer me to something that will elucidate me on the right to carry concealed please?

Being known as the science type, I naturally defer to statistics. Being that I work in the death industry, such statistics are at my fingertips, and as far as death in National Parks go, there is no better read than the Death in Yosemite & Death in the Grand Canyon books. Hands down, the most common encounter that will threaten your life is that encounter with Bad Judgement. I would gladly trade the weight of the firearm for the weight in equal amounts of Good Judgement -- I am sure that I would have less injury, less frostbite, less fear-induced stress on my heart....and most importantly, I would remember what mother told me about talking to strangers and allowing them into my strike zone, because THIS overwhemingly, preceeds most unfortunate encounters that females fall prey to.

Required reading in a stats class I took in college (in the 60's) was "How To Lie With Statistics". That's back when the average person most probably confused the 'mean', 'median', and 'mode'. Today's audience is more in tune with statistics, having grown up with it, but there will always be somebody with an agenda so as to skew the data or use certain sub-sets that fit his point of view.
That said, the weatherman can predict a 30% chance of rain, but if I am getting rained on, it's 100% for me. If I am walking down the sidewalk in an area unfamiliar to me (hypothetical here, because I prob. would not do that) and see a group of people acting in a threatening manner, the prudent thing for me to do is to cross the street. This may sound paranoid to some, but I constantly practice 'threat assessment' when going about my daily comings and goings. What would I do,,,,IF? Just like when on the freeway and looking to the left lane to see if clear IF the car/truck on my right veers into my lane.
Constant threat assessment and possible avoidance procedures are weighed and prioritized. But, if it looks like I might possibly be one of 'those statistics' you read about in the newspaper, there are other options to be used so it does not rain on me..........steve

Icy - Its not my obligation to make you feel comfortable in life. You dont have a "right" to serenity in America. I do however have a RIGHT to carry a firearm.
Those people whom you refer to as sauntering by you armed, why would you have any reason to fear them ? Do the police scare you too ? Do black people scare you ? Do butterflys scare you too ?
As far as I know everyone who "open carries" also carries ammunition on their person. A gun isnt much use if it cant be fired. For body armor....why would wearing body armor be a problem ? The police wear it and its legal for law abiding citizens to wear it. I have a bullet proof vest and I wear it occasionally in bad neighboorhoods. Its a common sense safety accesorie.

As far as passing people on the trail who are armed...it doesnt bother me ONE BIT. Why would it ? Both you and I pass people everyday in life who are armed. Do you believe that criminals walk around with "open carry" ? Well they dont and they cant. the reason criminals cant open carry is because the law doesnt allow them too and the police check open carry citizens so often that I highly doubt any criminal would ever take the chance.

By the way, have you ever lived in another state besides California ? Do you know that most states in America issue CCW's and have "open carry" and they have the lowest crime rates ?
I'm sure you live in the SF area where guns are considered evil and you have had very little or no contact with law abiding gun owners.

Hey Gary
Unless you're carrying a 454 Casul or 500 S&W, you're chances of stopping a griz are slim...but then again, who wants to carry that kind of extra weight while you're hiking. I'll just take my Glock 30SF .45 and hope that the BOOM scares them!

Bee, you present a false paradox. If I had to choose between the two, I too would choose good judgment. Obviously though, I don't have to choose one or the other. I sometimes choose both, depending upon what I feel my risk is. In California I've never felt there was risk enough to justify carrying a firearm. In Montana and Wyoming though I have often felt differently. I often hear the argument that there isn't a firearm available to guarantee your safety when you encounter an angry grizzly. I'll grant that as true but I'll bet the house that every person that's been mauled by one has had the thought cross their mind that they wish they had a firearm at that moment.

Mike - In the state of California you have the right to carry a concealed, loaded handgun but you will almost never be granted that right by a DA or Sheriff. Of course our founding fathers believed that the constitution didnt "grant" rights to citizens but rather had government as a function to PROTECT our rights. In that respect, the DA's and sheriffs are deny California citizens their RIGHT.

The only way you can get a CCW in California is if you are a judge, a democratic politician (Feinstien, Boxer) or a celebrity like Rosie O'Donell ( who is anti-gun), or you live in certain counties. You can google the county maps and see where they are most often issued.

Here are some examples of "open carry" in California

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3mF7opZ_sI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxP9yaEcNm0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNgtpWOZirc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQDJdurpUsA&feature=related

Please take note that California does not have a "stand and identify" law so citizens dont have to provide ID as shown in the videos.