Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board Rookie mistakes

OK, please help me. I am planning an overnight Whitney trip with my son in August. So, I am planning to bring a tent, sleeping bags, air matress, bear can, food, rain gear and small camelbacks to take with us from the Trail Camp to the summit. It is all lightweight stuff (from REI, of cause)but easily adds up to 30-35 lbs. for each of us. So, how can I go lighter? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Great advice Bob, thank you for it.

Someone mentioned the apples, those work for me, too. I only take trail type bars, dried nuts and fruit, and apples on high altitude hikes, and seems to be fine for me. I can't stomach a whole sandwich either at altitude.

To ensure a good nite's rest I take 1/2 tab of Ambian.
Will try the the Diamox this time, however, I've been at 10,000', 11,000' and 12,000' recently and didn't have any issues with AMS.

This is my first Whitney attempt this coming Tuesday, but we're going up Saturday & Sunday and staying at Horseshoe Meadows, or Onion Valley, then starting on Monday morning up to Consultation Lake, then summit on Tuesday.

Wish me luck!

A couple of thoughts:

1. I would say that you spent a MINIMAL time at altitude acclimatizing, and what you experienced is probably typical for that schedule. By the way, that difficulty sleeping is one of the classic symptoms of altitude illness.

2. It is hard to imagine that you could have more than about a 3,000 calorie deficit per day on this hike, as you describe it. That is the calories in 1 lb of fat. So I could buy you losing 3 lbs. But not really more than that. If you did, that could only have been water weight, which means you were more dehydrated than you thought. I have trouble believing that you could see a 3 lb loss in the face, but dehydration is often visible.

Congrats on the climb!

My experience is that REI hardly sells any lightweight gear.

The places to save weight fall into the small things that are expensive (doesn't really apply to you), and the big things:

1. Don't take stuff you won't use: most bring a TON of extra food. You only need one set of clothing, except socks. No books, ipods, pocket tv's, no extra shoes for camp (change socks, and wear boots unlaced--they are like another shoe) Headlamp only-no extra flashlight-none! Bring tiny bottles of consumables-sunscreen, insect spray, etc--not the 1 quart bottles (seen it!)

2. Consider lighter backpacking gear- the big items that matter are:

sleeping bag
pack
sleeping pad
cooking system
tent

For me, each of the above is about a lb or less. I don't use warm food on a three day or less hike, so no cooking system.

This has been in my head for a bit, just want to express it. Your advice is great, pragmatic, topical - but as I'm sure you know, there's another side to the coin.


I think the biggest rookie mistake is defining "success" and "making it" as reaching any particular "summit" at all. I think a better definition of success is the "wonderful experience" itself - living with the mountains. And I never feel any honest success until I'm safely at home.

The first time I made it, it was just an option. But up the MR we went. It was cool.

Last week, hoofing up the MT, I got the feeling that something was definitely wrong with the picture. Here I am in the throne of the Sierra Nevada, and I realize: this trail was not designed for aesthetics. If you wanted views, you'd seriously re-route the sucker. Rather it's the equivalent of Hwy 101. Dead dull.

And then I remembered - of course not - it was designed for mules. Mules don't get paid for looking around. When you get to the top, they could give you a certificate: Congratulations! You've done what a donkey can do!

The next day I had an off day so I just wandered around. The silver lining of the bailed partner, not bad at all. That was the day that made it for me. The valley between Wotan's & Pinnacle Ridge blows the roof off the summit. Gorgeous! I hit Wotan's twice that weekend, in fact. Found some real cool stuff up there.

Sure, I like to summit, as much as anyone. I don't brag about that much anymore when I get home. Whitney, as a highpoint, that's nice - but I see a lot of folks on the trail who seem to be hiking with blinders on. Success is your experience alone. Be sure to look around.

Ken,

Thanks for the response. A few questions / comments. If i am making mistakes I want to make sure that I address them on future endeavors.

1. What would have been an appropriate amount of time at elevation for this hike? Did we need an extra 1 day at the portal, an extra night at UBSL?

2. I read a bunch about AMS but didn't realize that insomnia was a symptom. Considering that none of us had headaches or nausea and we all felt good despite the lack of sleep, did we make a mistake by not going to lower altitude?

3. Regarding the dehydration, Starting 3 days prior to the trip I made sure I was drinking 4 liters of water a day. On the trip I drank 4 liters of water and 2 liter of gatorade a day. I monitored this closely because I historically have a problem with dehydration and cramping. If it was truly dehydration that caused me to lose weight, then what should I do differently with my strategy? Was I simply not drinking enough?

Replace the BRC with an Ursack. Just make sure you hang it from a rock. Marmots can't climb...and they are the problem at TC not bears. That's about 1 1/2# of pack weight. If you do not think they are legal, read the Inyo's definition of what constitutes a legal bear resistant product.

If there is no rain in the forecast...not even 10% chance, dump your rain gear.

Switch your Camelbak to a Platypus system, they are lighter by ounces.

Use feathers not fleece. More warmth at less weight.

I've found if you want to go lighter, you need a bit of coin.

Without an exact pack list it is difficult to suggestions.

As to 1, for a person who is totally non-acclimatized, I'd not do less than you did, and expect that some people will have symptoms. More days at altitude will almost certainly reduce symptoms in most (but not everyone). More is better. If I were a person who was coming from far away, spending a lot of time and money, I would invest in spending more time at altitude. I'd try to get a nite in at 10k before hiking, like at Horseshoe Meadow.

For 2, I'd say no, it was not neccessary to descend, in the absence of a headache. The lack of sleep is the bigger problem, in terms of physical exertion. I think this is an underappreciated issue.

For 3, we generally think not in terms of input, but output. For example, people with acute respiratory illnesses may have a daily water requirement of ten times a non-ill person, so measuring input would be rather meaningless. At altitude, the air is very dry. Rapid breathing (of exertion, and also of normal acclimatization), greatly increases the vapor loss.

I think the better measurements are urination every few hours, and a clear output---these are fairly reliable indicators of good hydration.

Increased urination is one of the processes of acclimatization. If it is not happening, not good. I'd think that almost everyone who is going through acclimatization would have to get up at least once during the night. But of course, that assumes that the body has enough free water available to excrete.

Hope that makes sense.

I think the #1 Rookie Mistake is not getting enough experience on lower peaks before attempting Whitney. It really pays to hike a few 12,000 and 13,000-foot peaks first. The more the better. You will have a better idea of how you tolerate altitude, how fast you can hike, how long you can hike, how much food and water you consume, etc. Hiking lower peaks isn't the only way to train for Whitney, but it's the best way.

It's important not to bring a lot of crap you don't need, but beyond that, I wouldn't focus too much on the weight of your gear. Rookies, by definition, are just getting started. Why spend a small fortune on expensive, special-purpose gear before you know how much and what kind of climbing you're going to do? That tiny, expensive, ultralight pack may seem pretty silly when you progress to winter climbing or start carrying a rope, and the extra stuff just won't fit. If you want to save some serious weight, cut back on the cheeseburgers and pizza.

Finally, don't ever hike more than a couple of hours from the trailhead without a rain shell and other appropriate clothing. The weather can turn ugly at any time, even when the forecast says 0% chance of rain. You could take a wrong turn or twist an ankle (or worse) coming down the trail. How well would you survive if you had to hobble down in the dark, or spend the night with no shelter?

I think this is misleading. Difficulty sleeping is part of the acclimatizing process, taken by itself. The brain is adjusting to a decrease of oxygen and sleeping "light" as a caution. It usually subsides by the second or third night. However, keep in mind that regardless of how well you're acclimated, you're never going to get a deep, uninterrupted, nor thoroughly restful sleep above 12,000'.

Sleeping and AMS ...

Found this a few months back when I was planning my trip and found it informative on the subject.

http://www.ismmed.org/np_altitude_tutorial.htm

this mountain climbing business is no fun. you can't sleep. you can't eat. you can't drink the water. you struggle to breathe. you get sunburned, windburned. capitalism is telling you to buy/bring a bunch of crap you don't need. you have to fight the man to let you in your own land. if i was a someone looking for a hobby, i would stay away from mountain climbing.

And yet we still do it...

...conclusive evidence of drain bamage.

At this point..... I would say obsessive compulsive behavoir.

That would be, a mountain of OCD.

Actually, I am referring to the Lake Louise Criteria, which came out of the 1991 International Hypoxia Symposium, so this is not new or speculative information.

http://www.high-altitude-medicine.com/AMS-LakeLouise.html

From that source, the definition of AMS is:
-----------
In the setting of a recent gain in altitude, the presence of headache and at least one of the following symptoms:

- gastrointestinal (anorexia, nausea or vomiting)
- fatigue or weakness
- dizziness or lightheadedness
- difficulty sleeping
-----------

Thus, "difficulty sleeping", as I have stated, is one of the definitional syptoms of altitude illness, not a normal part of acclimatization (although very common).

I would also doubt that difficulty sleeping is always going to be present at altitude. Once acclimatized, many people sleep well. Of course, some never do, but I'm not sure that is not because of what they are sleeping on, or their changed environment.

This article gets into some of the issues in more detail than many would want, but is illustrative of the complexity in the section of "Sleep at High Altitude".

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/303571-overview

Keys sections are: "An awakening may be sufficient for the person to remember the next day, while an arousal is not. Despite the transient and unremembered nature of arousals, they serve to dramatically impair daytime performance, especially if they occur frequently." and

"Arousals ordinarily are not remembered the next morning; however, the effects are similar to hypoxia, including altered judgment and performance. Often, the affected person is unaware of these alterations."

I've often thought that people heading up don't realize that they are going to be entering a state not unlike alcohol intoxication, with the typical loss of judgment that is associated....but expect to be able to make good decisions.

I'm sure that this has been an operative feature of some of the bizarre dramas on Everest and other high mountains, although people who make bad decisions are often savagely attacked for what they have decided, and are caught in defending decisions that I'm fairly sure they don't remember making.

Great thread!! I do agree about losing weight is much better than spending a fortune on ultra light hiking equip. Back when I was racing quads, guys would spend thousands of extra dollars on Titanium parts to save a few ounces. Even though they were about 30lbs overweight, it still made sense to them. If you just cut out a lot of the crap you eat and train before a big hike, you'll be better off. Then spend the extra money on ultralight gear and it will be that much easier. I say loose the weight first, then spend the extra $.

I'm not questioning the research, but the logic is misleading:

If A [headache] + B [difficulty sleeping], then C [AMS]. True

If B, then C. False. (I emphasized parameters in the quotes, which may have been overlooked)

Is there any valid data to support any population that has NO sleeping difficulty (and without AMS) after a significant gain in altitude?

AxeMan:

I'm not sure what you call "significant gain in altitude," but I once came from Reno (~5,000 feet) for a winter trip on Russell. I spent one night at Whitney Portal (~8,300 feet) and then slept in a bivy sack at the Russell-Carillon saddle (~13,200 feet). I slept fine.

I've had trouble sleeping because of howling wind, sunburn, a leaking air mattress, a sleeping bag that was way too warm or not warm enough, anxiety about bears or the next day's climb, and my partner's snoring. The only time altitude has bothered me was on Denali, and half a Diamox fixed that in 15 minutes.

Yes, Bob, I'm with you. I lived at 8,000' for several years and have no problem going from sea level to 12,000' and sleeping well enough, but we aren't the norm. (This is the "Rookie mistakes" thread.)

I'm merely trying to emphasize that having difficulty sleeping after a significant (and here 'significant' will solely depend on an individual's history and fitness and the amount of exertion and level of hydration prior) gain in altitude can be expected. It IS a symptom of AMS, but taken alone should not conclude AMS.

I would prefer to assuage this concern as something to keep an eye on, and not have people pressing their 911 buttons on their SPOTs because they can't sleep. <insert smiley of your choosing here>