Mt. Whitney Portal Store & Hostel Forums General Mt. Whitney Portal Store Message Board JuAltitude Sickness: Mental or Physical?

Makes me think of an office manager we had many years ago. Two or three times a year she'd get this evil gleam in her eye, wink at us and say in a low voice, "Watch this - I'm going to tell Bob how awful he looks, and I'll bet you he goes home within an hour". Bob was our boss, and of course there was nothing wrong with him, but she'd disappear into into his office for a few minutes to plant the seed. Sure enough, after about 30 minutes he'd come out and announce he didn't feel well and was going home.

As you say, the mind has no effect on physical function.

I think the mind can make stuff happen but I doubt it can unmake stuff.

I think your mind can convince you that you are suffering from altitude sickness when it may be anxiety or something else. However, if you truly have a serious altitude sickness problem, there is no way for your mind to fix that - you have to descend or if that is impossible, hole up and hope it'll go away. If it's truly physical, wishing won't make it go away.

Bee - why so confrontational? Like he said, he was just asking.

booger,

Even after Dr. Lankford emphasized the error of the assertion that AMS could be "Over Rode" by the powers of determination, Bobcat came back with a bold letter shout that (paraphrased) "You are not getting my point, they OVER RODE it (AMS)"

I come from a scientific background, so I admit that baseless, factless, suppositions tweak a certain aspect of my mental state (that I work very hard to keep civil) especially when they are a direct contradiction to what years of research has proven: AMS is a serious PHYSICAL condition that can and may lead to death if ignored and not treated properly (or at all)DO NOT IGNORE THE SYMPTOMS, which means of course : DO NOT ATTEMPT TO "OVERRIDE" THESE SYMPTOMS, either.

Dr Harvey Lankford & Dr. Ken Murray have spent a great deal of time during their careers writing and lecturing on the topic of altitude sickness, hoping to educate the masses against amongst many things, the urge to push on and submit one's self to summit fever when faced with early signs of AMS. It has been a long and frustrating battle to turn the tide in the direction of precaution rather than careless abandon, when it comes to addressing mountain illness symptoms/care.

This excellent forum is many times the one and only source of information that newbies refer to when planning their trips, thus, extreme care must be taken when tossing around theories with unsubstantiated statements as proof. Hasty generalizations based on random accounts are by all means a dangerous way to conduct research, especially when it is human nature to read and believe....what you want to believe.

B

PS I am ONLY speaking to the premise of Over Riding AMS. I am not asserting that one cannot over ride a bruise,
toe ache, mosquito bite, scratch, all of which are irrelevent to the discussion.

Well stated.

altitude sickness is definitely a physiological reaction to elevation change...i am no physician, but from my experience and from what i have read, your ability to cope with elevation change is based on physical fitness, blood chemistry, and genetics.

that said, your perception of symptoms and your perception of the severity of those symptoms by definition, is completely mental. and from my experience in the mountains, you definitely have a lot of time alone in your head to think about all the things that could be going wrong. i may be more of a hypochondriac than others, but that time alone in my head, just putting one foot in front of the other, has probably caused more failed summit attempts than true altitude sickness.

control the things you can, physical fitness and blood chemistry through diverse aerobic activity, eating right, staying hydrated, and appropriate acclimatization. also, keep your mind in check while up high, i've found that taking a break, doing a little meditation, and popping a few tylenol, does wonders for mild AMS.

if all the above fails, well, then i guess it just wasn't in the cards genetically - but not to worry some of the best alpine climbs are not the highest ones!

That's probably the qualifying factor in this discussion. Mild AMS - what most people would consider that very common, dull headache in the background at altitude - is one thing. Continuing to ascend is not a life-or-death decision. But once the headache becomes severe, or another symptom appears - typically nausea or extreme fatigue/sleepiness - then AMS must be presumed and appropriate measures taken. Regardless of what "Plan B" may be at this point, ascending further should not be considered. Descent should be the priority unless the symptoms disappear or moderate.

Certainly, many people every year attempt to summit Whitney, and other Sierra peaks, with full-blown AMS, pushing through the hurt with determination and tenacity. Most wind up generally OK after all is said and done. Others, however, do not. This message board has many, many cautionary tales stored in its posts about hikers/climbers of all experience levels who doggedly pushed upward when they should have descended. Two summers ago a teenage boy died astonishingly quickly from AMS complications after going no higher than Cottonwood Lakes.

As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, people will continue to ascend with full-blown AMS symptoms - for a variety of reasons. What should not happen is that those people continue on in ignorance of the consequences. And they should never be encouraged to do so. To my way of thinking, inspiring someone with evident AMS to keep pushing upward is akin to handing a drunk the car keys if he promises to be careful - very bad things are waiting to happen, despite the highest degree of optimism that might be present. Mind over matter in a marathon or in the gym is one thing. Mind over matter at 13,000 feet, in rough terrain and miles from medical help, is a totally different animal.

How many of those episodes would be solved with a simple request to your Doc for a prescription for Diamox... ?

If you don't have 4-5 days (14500-10000/1000=4.5 using the most common formula.) to acclimatize, you should seriously consider using it.

I do agree that mind over matter does work with very mild cases (And you better have the experience to know what a mild case is and how it might progress.) (My summit on 01/16 is a perfect example.), but as BD says, that's a gamble that people shouldn't take. (I figured Ryan, Brandon and Ava could carry me down.)

Richard,

Well, we might have sat on you and used you for a sled! =:P Sans crampons, of course. Never sled with crampons on.

Brandon

We could have wrapped him up in Mr. Nemo and let him down with the short-rope...

He could then relax and eat his cheetos on the way down.

Some thoughts on bobcat's observations that fall in line with the accepted wisdom that AMS is varible and the subject of many different factors. I read once (don't know where) that being in better shape allows one to go faster, and/or breathe less deeply, which can all works against the climber with regard to AMS. My experience suggests this. The one time I got mild AMS was the time I was in the best shape. Since then, I concentrate on my breathing and take my time. (on most of my climbs, I travel form sea level and climb from a low level the next day.) As to the brit that had never climbed but summitted Everest. That is not a good example. Nothing I have read suggests that first timers, properly acclimatized, would have any more difficulty than someone that has been up there before.

I vote in favor of body over mind, all else equal.

Push through sore limbs, push through fear of heights, push through your revulsion to wag bags. But do not push through a condition involving swelling of the brain. If you do, it will become more mental than physical.

Just read this thread. It ain't mental. Thanks for the LOL Mr. Graham!

Hehehee.....thanks Norma!

Well Rick, at least you know you're not mental . . .

I think this is right about the time that we were talking about making offerings the the Volcano gods, so maybe...

How can anyone say that AMS is mental? At sea level where I live I am athletic, solidly in condition both aerobically and strength wise. When I go to altitude I need a few days to acclimate. All the strength and aerobic capacity in the world is not going to change that.

When I was younger I would blast up to altitude (12,000) form sea level and do some barfing along the way (pushed through it). I always felt better after emptying my stomach via mouth. This also made me prone to dehydration because nothing would stay in my stomach. Now I prefer to spend a few extra days exploring around the 10,000 foot level and below to acclimate properly.

Like stated earlier a lot of beginners have no knowledge of AMS, some may not have heard of it at all. When I was younger I had read about AMS but didn’t have the sense to realize that was why I barfed when I blasted up from sea level. If you are new to altitude listen to you body, read up on AMS.

In my humble opinion there is no way it’s a mental condition.

If bobcat had phrased the question as "to what extent do you think altitude sickness is related to one's state of mind" she'd have gotten very different replies. Because she phrased it in either/or terms, some took the liberty of really hosing her.

I agree with Graham...and that Bobcat got a somewhat hostile response when she just wanted some conversation on the topic.

I chuckled when I just read this:

Boardman quoting Tasker quoting Shipton: "No illness ever stopped a man who really wanted to reach a summit."

I guess Shipton was on Sheri's side...